Tories aren’t even bothering to hide their NHS privatisation plan anymore

[Letshaveablackcelebration2022]

I think it was possible Noam Chomsky who said that the route to all privatisation of services was that first they run it totally into the ground and then they offer up a private model as a solution . It’s actually tedious in its predictability. Pillaging everything good from the country- Royal Mail, water, utilities, rail network, even housing via private landlords - everything to make profit.

And of course as predicted, the NHS was the final prize.

This meeting was to further explore using the private to help reduce waiting lists in the short term. It isn' t some kind of conspiracy to take over the NHS. They have spare capacity. Would you rather your 80 year DM waits for 2 years for her hip replacement or get it done in the next month?

Did I say it was a conspiracy?

Tory efforts for privatisation with the Camerons.of the.world dabbling in it too.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-under-pressure-over-25739649

inews.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-met-private-us-healthcare-firms-uk-social-care-market-health-nhs-1702556

surely the real underlying problem is that the pay is not enough to incentivise people to want to do the work...how will private healthcare function with no clinical staff?
Without the NHS who will train clinical staff anyway, will people want to go into medicine if they have to pay huge fees for years of private training, how will they even afford that when housing is so expensive?

Housing where we are on new build estates some are or were set aside at discounted prices for NHS, police, fire service employees. It's nowhere enough though.

it's something? It at least upholds the principle that these professions are valued for the work they do?
Or is it in reality just a token gesture?

The issue with the NHS picking up critical care and the private sector doing the rest like hip replacements etc which is routine perhaps is that most of that work which is lucrative and is where surgeons and consultants learn.

You would then be incentivizing these people away from the NHS as a career. Who is going to deal with the patient who is complex, multiple conditions, no easy fixes, who is poor? Who is maybe mentally unwell too? A&E becomes even more of a nightmare as you are paid to deal with some of the most distressed people but you get less than someone who is doing cataracts or elective surgery?

Answer - no one. Doctors are not saints. If you pay them a lot for easy work they will take it.

Hang on, many are in FT employment with the NHS and do bank on their days off...to earn enough so they can afford to live... we are 135k short of staff in the NHS too, so all this idea would is slash that shortfall, it wont conjure up skilled medics or surgeons.

Other folk on bank aren't interested in FT employment.

I'd look again at your figures on staffing...

I don't know what the blue light lot have done to deserve modern new builds. Seems a bit harsh to inflict that on them, even if they are striking.

On the serious though, the notion of 'value' is decided by markets, rather than an idea of societal merit.

Salaries would increase significantly if they were privatised, because there would be a need for competition on the employer's side.

How does that work in a public health care system? you have the bare bones AE, critical care specialist & chronic NHS.. paying x amount and subject to review.. the private sector able to offer & pay what it likes...

Sounds idea...

On the serious though, the notion of 'value' is decided by markets, rather than an idea of societal merit
true, but markets are regulated, and humans who are well positioned have plenty opportunity to put a thumb on the scale and steer markets towards outcomes that may benefit certain groups over others
further, it could be argued that since they form part of society (ie they are comprised humans and their activities) markets are (at least in part) an expression of societal merit

Sorry, I truly have no idea what you're asking me here.

Constant media drip feed now about how the NHS could be saved if we only paid a little more. I'll pay for my GP visit but if there is something wrong will I get admitted/treated as soon as or wait for 3 yrs or pay to go to Latvia. If we get some kind of ace Nordic healthcare that's good but we can't be sent by the NHS to Europe now thanks to Brexit.

Regulation is a great way of providing your aforementioned thumb by tampering with markets, so I'm inclined to agree with you that we should be getting rid of some!

Disagree about markets being societal expression though, as each individual or group values things differently, even within the society itself.

Really?

So you didn't say ..

Salaries would increase significantly if they were privatised, because there would be a need for competition on the employer's side

its very obvious what i was asking... and i gave the reasons why your idea is idiotic.

Regulation is a great way of providing your aforementioned thumb by tampering with markets, so I'm inclined to agree with you that we should be getting rid of some!
hehe nice spin on what I actually said.....👀

ok... I was trying to be polite.

Take a look at what you said. Whatever you were trying to get across is in no way obvious because your response is very difficult for me to parse.

Are you suggesting that getting higher salaries in the private sector is idiotic?
Even now, private pays more, so if you want more attractive salaries to encourage recruitment - that's your answer.

The NHS has an extremely large (and expensive) managerial class, and yet cannot function to an acceptable standard despite the record £££ it receives every year. Perhaps they should look inwards instead of constantly blaming the government for their failures.

@orangeoyster

Yes lets boost the private sector, get them competing for staff from the only place they can.. the NHS and see where that takes us?

On the broader point of NHS management, yes of course it should be as efficient as possible but that requires staff... every single issue my DD tells me that goes wrong is down to lack of medical staff, often resulting in harm to patients.

Everyone bangs on about NHS bloated management sector but then cannot say how they think an organisation of 1m people should be managed or how they expect medics to be able to do their jobs without management.

We have underfunded the NHS, as a proportion of GDP for decades (compared to similar countries), the historic average is around 4%, for 10years after 2010, it was just under 2% and even that funding was found by cutting support to councils for Social Care... which is almost all in the private the sector.. how has that worked in competing for care staff and increasing salaries..... ?

Plus staff and salaries only take us so far, the capital build program and equipment replacement has pretty much stalled as previous salary increases have come from existing budgets...

Bank nursing suits some but there isn't the pension. So you can do both. Same with our consultants who in the NHS are rationed surgery wise due to the lack of money, staff, beds. At least their private work keeps their hand in. I'd rather have a surgeon who wasn't losing his touch.

Private consultant work also gets people back to work quicker. Diagnosis is faster.

@Alexandra2001

They can take all of the (competent) NHS staff they want, and then its worthless husk can float off into the sea. Everybody wins.

Everything you've said just underlines my point. Efficiency does NOT mean more staff required - in fact it is quite the opposite. They have record numbers of staff who are clogging up the works and costing money.

Their spending is awful, as with every government entity. I can say with authority that private orgs spend their money far more effectively than public ones do.

Why? Because the priorities are different, and I've seen this happen for over a decade.

Also, Council social care spending has never been higher than it is currently. Billions more than a decade ago.

The NHS is not underfunded, it just costs too damn much. This is an important difference.

Genuine Question: Do you have a solution for anything that isn't 'throw more cash into the pit forever'?

NHS chairs dispute the staff number claims made by Govt.

Yes spending is up over the last couple of years, CV related but over the last 12 years, down on historic averages.

I don't know about your claims on SC funding but providers say it doesn't matter what the Govt spends because there just isn't the staff... as i said, this is a private industry.

Then there are demographic changes and meeting this demand...

Genuine Question: Do you have a solution for anything that isn't 'throw more cash into the pit forever'?

Unfortunately healthcare costs... but throwing money is stupid, there needs to be a long term plan, coupled with immediate changes... which will inc using some limited private sector involvement for patients in the most pain and longest waits.

So, I would fund a £2 ph increase for SC staff and increase mileage rates, i would pay NHS HCPs a 10% pay rise as an average, more for Band 5/6's, relax all visa restrictions etc on EU HCPs, audit of equipment and bed requirements and act accordingly.

I would also remove free prescriptions for pensioners paying higher rate tax, charge for missed appointments, GP and Hospitals.

As to pay for it, which will be your next question... a: there is no alternative and we will have to look at higher taxes for CGT, IHT and investment income.

I do not see how privatisation, which has failed across a large number of sectors (not all) is somehow a solution.

One health trust brought in UK company to make them more efficient. We're talking about a company that has provided solutions across the globe. Three months they were there in every department. Their solution would save the trust £40 million. The savings weren't in nursing, doctors, surgeons, porters, but administration. The board thanked the company, paid them and did Fuck all.

This is all rather academic in a way, because the Conservatives have not got enough time to implement any of these changes before the next election and to do so is electoral poison (even though it looks like they will be out of power for a generation)

However, they will reserve the right to carp on the sidelines about further use of the private sector.

Labour are the only party who can reform the NHS. They created it. They don't have to follow the Tory orthodoxy on this, but they do have to make it clear who is responsible for running the service into the ground.

Javid wants an interesting job after the Conservatives are eviscerated at the next election. He's right about demand, but the solution is not two tierism.

By far my favourite comment. It sounds like we're a lot closer than expected!

(My figures are from NHS England itself. If the chairs have an issue with them then I have to ask what they're actually DOING with their days.)

Anyway, I agree with much of what you say, though I would go further and I propose a different way of getting there. I absolutely oppose higher taxes, as we already pay far more than we should (or some do, at least).

You don't even need to increase wages. If you reduce benefits and the minimum wage then you'll end up with more carers than you know what to do with.

Privatisation is the only solution that will be sustainable, and it hasn't failed at all, as far as I can tell.

Assuming that you're thinking of the trains, they are a poor example of what I have in mind. Government mitts remain all over that sector and I severely doubt that it would be any better if publicly funded. You would simply end up with more people paying for trains that they don't use.

Rail could do with a spot of union busting, if anything, but that's another topic 🤐

Starmer has said we need the private sector for catch up covid delayed too much. So he's being very pragmatic and honest. It's a cross party issue