To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

That's in England so completely irrelevant to GRR in Scotland, but thanks - will take a look.

It would be simpler surely to just allow trans people, and everyone else, to use their gender surely? No legislation required.

The level of feeling around any subject does not have to be proportionate to the number of people it affects.

Most women will go through life without being raped.

Would you say of rape that “there is a level of emotion and vitriol around the subject disproportionate to the level it affects the lives of most women.”??

Well it seems to be a legal requirement, so there must be some legislative change - I assume they aren't just doing it for fun. But absolutely, if we could make all the substantive changes that seem to be in the GRR without extending it to GRCs that would be fine by me (it seems that neither I or anyone else her can pinpoint exactly what the substantive legal difference that affects women is... but I'm sure someone will avail me soon!)

Sorry, do nurses as a routine get asked their birth certificate? Also what about spaces - do people get asked to provide a birth certificate/GRC to enter? I've never heard or seen of such an example

Someone up thread literally said they'd had to show their birth certificate in every job they'd had. Did you miss that?

But you also miss the basic point that they'd declare their sex on application and there would be consequences to lying on a job application.

Surely now that same sex marriage is thankfully respected, there's no need for the grc anyway.
So why spend ££££££ on something that nobody needs.

The point about the Scottish GRA bill is that it allows people to self-ID as trans from the age of 16. No need for medical or psychological assessment, no need for parental involvement,.

Now, I have no problem with trans people who want to transition. BUT I think that it should require more than just getting up one morning and deciding to self-ID, especially if you are under 18 because this is a huge step to take with implications which will impact you for the rest of your life. There should be a need for medical or psychological assessment, to ensure that you are helped to make the right choice for you.

However, even worse than that issue is the fact that this legislation will give carte blanche to any man who wants to harm women and girls. Any man would be able to self-ID and have instant access to women's safe spaces and the right to be recognised as a woman if entering a caring or health care role - or even to work in a prison or women's rape crisis centre full of vulnerable women already traumatised by men. And let's not forget the sex offenders who have already been self-IDing as women to avoid going to men's prisons/to actively get themselves into women's prisons.

Add to that that any self-IDing trans woman will also have the right to take places designated for women on, for example, short lists for local and national government - the places meant to give equal representation opportunities to women and to allow women's needs to be reflected in the formulation of local and national policies.

Oh, and did I mention that health and crime statistics will become automatically meaningless because we will no longer be able to track trends by sex?

Lastly, the situation where women rape victims are being forced under oath to refer to their rapists as "she".

This is not an academic discussion of vague scenarios. Self-IDing affects women and girls directly and adversely in their everyday lives in so many ways.

So why spend ££££££ on something that nobody needs.

Well quite. And not just £, but copious time, effort and political capital.

Why spend all that if it doesn't change anything 🤔

I did yes, but now I've read I'm a bit skeptical. Would be interested to know their job, I've never heard that (including from nurses I know!)

@BarmyBrunhilde

You miss the point of my post you quoted.

Right now, people with a GRC are very few. Just about 5000 I think and they are still permitted to be excluded from some services as you know.

The point is I could challenge any male in a female space right now because I know they are very unlikely to have a GRC. The fact that a GRC is offered to a much wider group means there will be more males accessing our spaces either under that process or outside it.

A lot more males and we would have way less recourse to challenge them.

www.nrscotland.gov.uk/registration/i-want-to-get-married-in-scotland-how-do-i-go-about-it/what-form-does-a-marriage-ceremony-take-in-scotland

There are no legally prescribed words in Scotland, so I guess we can just forget GRR and move on to something more important?

All of this! Totally correct. The OP is a gas lighter. We are all stupid. Women have no value. The OP has no life experience of dealing with these issues so decides to come on this forum to tell us all to shut up!!!

Op - I think lots of people probably agree with you and I can see your point of view. However, what I have an enormous problem with, is that people (mostly women) are told they are not allowed to discuss the issues and have been hounded in the most horrifying ways for publicly expressing views that until about 5 years ago would have been considered completely mainstream (eg people cannot actually change sex). I think that has turned the issue into a very serious problem indeed, because it has becomes a much wider issue about freedom of speech, victimisation and about women being told what the are and are not allowed to think.

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/amp/

So this is what confuses me - I know 3 trans people, 1 has a GRC the other 2 do not. All of them just crack on (using the toilets of their transitioned gender) and none of them ever show their birth certificates. I can't see practical situations day to day where GRCs come in to play. How does the actual scenario play it in your head post vs pre GRC in terms of 'self id'? If you saw a trans woman in the toilet would you ask to see her birth certificate?

I understand what you are saying op and I would also treat any transgender person I came across in my life with the same respect I treat anyone.

However, I think you are massively underestimating the wider implications of the self identification debate.

To give you one example, I just happened to switch on to a history programme this evening and the young presenter was narrating how many female students currently study medicine at a certain university when previously they were barred. His phrasing was “nowadays xxxxx number of students who identify as female study medicine at this university”. I flinched because this literally means that women are no longer allowed to “be” female, we can only identify as such. This was in mainstream tv. Do you understand how this diminishes women?

Economically speaking, I'd expect the OP to be MUCH more concerned about the cost of living crisis and reflect on how much money will be spent on what is, by OPS admission, an unnecessary piece of paper. Maybe all that cash could be used in a more productive and helpful way, supporting free school meals, or our NHS? I mean, it's just a piece of paper that changes nothing. Isn't it?

It's not about the specific law as you are right in that trans people do all of that anyway and already use wrong sex spaces. It's about legitisimuding that in law way before social norms are there. Usually norms and values change first and then the law, eg contraception in 1967 for married women and not until the 70s for single women.
Not that I agree with gender ideology and I do hope the regressive nature of it is seen rather than blindly thinking it's progressive.

Read this and tell me self id is a good idea. This sex offender has a GRC, no dysphoria, no intention to transition in any meaningful way. And exposed their erect penis to a nine year old.

Trans activists first of all said it was a hoax, then that the nine year old was in the wrong, was rude for looking at the erect penis.

www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/exclusive-transgender-fugitive-who-spurred-wi-spa-riots-bares-all/

“I barely think about these things!” (Tinkly laugh)

These women are living in bliss.

Of course we are allowed our own point of view (clearly I'm expressing a very unpopular one on here). But seeing other mums (and parents in general) struggling with all sorts of very major economic and political issues day to day I find the monomania regarding trans issues in the media and social media worrying because I feel other issues get missed in terms of proportion.

But you also miss the basic point that they'd declare their sex on application and there would be consequences to lying on a job application.

Tell that to the women using the Glasgow Rape Crisis Centre which appointed a self-IDing trans woman to a CEO post which was restricted to women applicants. No implications for him, sorry her, for applying for a job which was legally unavailable to him sorry her.

To make matters worse, said self-IDing trans woman has said publicly that women rape victims must be re-educated to accept trans women dealing with them in the refuge or else be seen as bigots. www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19509343.outcry-plan-educate-bigoted-rape-survivors-trans-rights/

If the GRR goes through in Scotland 16 year old males will now be able to be registered as legally female. There will be no way of excluding them from the female changing rooms at school.

Fuck the rights of the females to privacy and dignity, right?

Well at least we have some honesty here. You don't oppose the law, in terms of the practical impact, you have a philosophical opposition to legitimising trans identities and oppose it on that basis. I disagree with you, but honestly it's a lesser concern for most women.

I know a few trans people. I really feel for them, support them 100% and see that their life is unbelievably tough, but that doesn’t stop me thinking trans women have absolutely no place in womens spaces. They are not women.

Sorry second paragraph above was not meant to be struck through!