To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

@Fieldofgreycorn , absolutely nothing you've described can be scientifically verified. It's a thought experiment with no basis in reality.

My DD says she's a lesbian , she's 9 I'm not bothered if she says that, and I'm happy. Half her friends say they are lesbians and have girlfriends it seems to be a bit of game at the moment. When she starts puberty sexuality becomes clearer. If my DD said she was a boy , I certainly wouldn't be pushing her to transition at such a young age when identity changes. I would not allow my DD as a child to take puberty blockers , cross sex hormones or surgeries. The difference between homosexuality and trans is vast. It doesn't effect your physical body, trans need cross sex hormones and surgeries that chop off healthy body parts causing infertility.

They want to ban "conversion" therapy and say yes it's perfectly fine to take hormones and have extensive risky surgeries to remove healthy tissue !? If I went to the doctor's and asked them to remove my leg as a I self identify as an amputee they would rightly say no and call the MH team.. Gender reaffirming treatment should only be given after comprehensive assessments and counselling as it permanently affects your body.

Nothing here is based on evidence. You have described something akin to a belief system.

And from what I read here, and I think we have discussed it before, you seem to be out of touch with the new transgender beliefs. I think you describe transexuals as they were once called and not the wide range of people under the transgender umbrella now.

Plus. Human sex is determined at conception. Just because the initial stages of embryonic life means no differences in sex yet, the coding is already there. The pathway is already determined from the coding the sperm carries.

“There are feasible biologically based theories of gender identity development.”

I don’t recall you presenting one that was feasible. I am sorry if I missed it. You know I like to read what most people link up.

On the subject of oppression, does anyone have any statistics on men wanting to be women in societies were oppression of women is at the extreme. Eg Afghanistan, Iran etc? Where people aren’t able to transition in these countries is there any evidence of the results of this eg suicide rates relating to people not being able to transition?

Historicially how do people think gender identity appeared? Was this simply women not conforming to gender stereotypes? Was it effeminate men? Are there examples of straight men living as women? If so were these linked to culture? Fashion?If not are there any details about the outcome of this?

it seems to me, in order to establish the innateness of gender identity it would be necessary to establish established patterns over long periods and between cultures accounting for other variables - although of course this would be near impossible to do.

Some would say yes it [gender identity] can be scanned for. (Evidence is weak).

What sort of scanner can scan for a gender identity? Does it show more pink if 'girlie' and more blue if 'blokeish'?

This is complete and utter gibberish. Weak? Do me a favour.

This is fascinating, thank you.

It's also ever so slightly scary. The medical profession are seemingly following the same treatment pathway for all cases, despite there being numerous different causes.

Shouldnt there be different treatment pathways dependent on the cause? Some therapeutic rather than medical. It's a one size fits all solution and that's not working.

On the subject of oppression, does anyone have any statistics on men wanting to be women in societies were oppression of women is at the extreme. Eg Afghanistan, Iran etc? Where people aren’t able to transition in these countries is there any evidence of the results of this eg suicide rates relating to people not being able to transition?

this is a good point. Because i think it's been established that a consistent percentage of humans are homosexual (around 10?) and IIRC that is consistent over all societies. So for eg in Iran there are gay men at the same rate as there are gay men elsewhere. But in Iran they are not allowed to be homosexual so in return for not being punished (jail? execution?) they have the "choice" of SRS. I don't notice great swathes of trans women in Afghanistan. I suppose we need a lot more research on this.

but maybe it really is a "first world problem"

Here are some articles that cover just a fraction of the breadth of the impact on the rights of all females (of any age or gender) from the conflicts of males demanding inclusion.

By the way, please note that I, as do many feminists, include all females in my campaigning. Those females who transition absolutely still need the efforts of feminism even if they reject them. It is often an accusation that our discussions exclude them, but they are integrally tied to our rights because of their body type.

Extreme hormone or cosmetic surgery still means a body is male or female as it was at birth, just with extreme modifications.

paste the Telegraph URLs into archive .ph to read or use a paywall unlocker

Artciles about the impact on children

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/21/why-teenage-girls-front-line-trans-war

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/20/puberty-blockers-given-almost-children-sent-assessment-tavistock/

On Lesbians

“Gender reform bill has betrayed lesbians — and will send them back into the closet”
by Sally Wainwright

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/82515090-980f-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=6dcf538a69e87a8f07c3c2730148cdd7

and from Julie Bindel
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/20/dangerous-conflate-gay-trans-rights-struggles/

Women’s sport

www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2023/01/20/exclusive-world-athletics-set-allow-transgender-athletes-compete/

Also look for articles on women’s rape crisis shelters and support groups, prisons (some excellent links up thread, right to having female only health care professionals, the right for female hospital wards.

This impacts employment, sport, our children’s health, our children’s education, safeguarding.

look up Sex Matters for many other impacts and clear guidance on what needs to be done.

sex-matters.org

A good overall article

from Janice Turner

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2a58f174-9902-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=51cc190e62095381b1443a5d3141eb0e

Hadley Freeman

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/06f8a01a-9981-11ed-b166-62bd6c86c09d?shareToken=09c6f6a2c83b84bccc9b1b11d983a5f5

There are plenty of examples on the fact that transitioning does not change male crime rates

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?latest=0

And towards the end, this thread is an archive of links covering many of the issues.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0

LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO START YOUR OWN PUSHBACK

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2

Brook is not case law, sorry.

a-question-of-consent.net/2020/05/29/the-case-of-sb/

And here is a documentary capturing feminist voices on the topic.

I think we need third spaces. Single sex, for both male and female, and a neutral space for those who want it.

No males in female spaces, and vive versa. That shows respect, doesn't it?

We also need the word "sex" to MEAN SEX, biological sex.

Provision for those who dont want single sex spaces, provision for those who do.

Simple.

And fair.

Plus even if this thing should exist it is still, quite obviously, a different thing to having a female body.

The ideology is not only that the thing exists, but that (a) it is what being a woman/man really is, with body type just a red herring (1),

(b) the body type has no significance or consequences to a person's life but somehow all the stuff set up by/for people based on body type is co-incidentally just the right thing for these mental gender types as well,

and (c) if you don't feel this thing that just means you haven't noticed it, so just keep on using and doing the same body-type stuff but accept that actually it's now, and always was, because of your mental gender type so you have to accept other body types because they also have your mental gender type.

I'm happy to believe there could be mental subgroups of human that do have measurable common traits across sex and that sometimes it will be meaningful to recognise their similarities and give them a political and social presence. In fact, I think that's already happening for ASD. I just don't think we should be taking two of these subgroups as replacing and superceding the sexes.

(1) They never explain why we would even have this idea that men and women existed in the first place if we hadn't based it on bodies. How does it make sense that we'd somehow come up with these two groups that align to gender mentalities millenia before we realised gender mentalities even existed?

It was a way of avoiding legalising same sex marriage. Pretend someone is the opposite sex and their marriage is heterosexual instead.

LGB had to wait a further decade for equal marriage. Remember that next time you are told LGB have trans people to thank for our rights.

Of course, now we have equal marriage, as well as equal pension age and GDPR to protect all our sensitive data, the GRA is entirely redundant. It should be repealed, not repurposed for a different, much bigger group of people (basically anyone who wants one).

OP seems to be posting things that are no way the convincing evidence they think it is.

It has been well discussed already that the law around males entering female single sex spaces had not been properly tested. And that the provisions for exemptions are unclear and seem to have drifted away from the original intention. The laws supposedly allow males to be excluded from
single sex spaces, but the reality is that organisations are fearful to do this , partly due to backlash, partly due to misrepresentation by groups who have helped write the policies for the organisation- such as Stonewall.

Sex Matters and Legal Feminist have articles discussing these issues.

sex-matters.org

www.legalfeminist.org.uk

I believe (I could be wrong) that one of the contributors is Akua Reindorf who sits on the board of the EHRC

twitter.com/akuareindorf/status/1472889479153213448?s=12

This area of law is complex and is in no way as ‘decided’ as this OP makes out.

I don’t think gender identity ‘goes away’. Sometimes people go down the wrong path.
Sometimes a person has a weak or developing gender identity and chooses a certain route before their gender/ sexual identity formation is complete or has resolved.

As I think you know, gender dysphoria can have several causes. One of which is a cross sex core gender identity (transsexuality). Others include: trauma. Abuse. Contagion. Sexual orientation confusion. Internalised homophobia. Gender non conformity. Paraphilia. Psychosis. ASD. (Not that autism and transsexuality are necessarily mutually exclusive. There may even be common developmental neurological factors).

Some people may have a gender identity that is very much in the middle of the spectrum and have difficulty understanding who they are. They may make a change and then only by having experienced that realise it’s not right for them. Some detransitioners have told me that is the case.

Your first statement doesn’t fit with the ‘strongly held’ point you made previously but let’s think about detransitioners for a minute.

Given your points about and the quite severe risk of a person in emotional distress misdiagnosing themselves as trans, do you think it is wise to ensure that all young and vulnerable people are only offered talking therapy for a significant period of time in order to fully unpack their distress and explore whether their perception of their identity is going to persist for life or whether it is born of trauma and can be alleviated with therapy?

Do you also agree that it would be unwise for the government to outlaw this type of open exploratory therapy which, in the interests of open exploration and not foreshadowing an outcome will not immediately affirm the patient’s current perception of their identity?

Detransitioners who medically altered their bodies often suffer permanent damage and harm to their health that often renders them sterile and could shorten their life. Do you think we need to put far more effort into exploring alternative solutions so they feel happy in their body without needing medication or surgery?

Currently the trans lobby call that conversion therapy and are strenuously attempting to ban it and criminalise therapists and even parents who suggest that ‘trans’ might not be the correct self diagnosis to alleviate a mental health crisis.

We have a growing number of detransitioners who received medication and surgery after one or two appointments at the gender clinic. Many assume that the process is far more rigorous than that but for far too many, it isn’t. The presumption is towards medication rather than any other solution.

The aim should be for 100% correct diagnosis rate before medication and surgery. No other area of medicine accepts a misdiagnosis rate of (research currently shows) approx 30%. Misdiagnosis leading to unnecessary life altering medication or surgery is normally treated as a ‘never event’ - why is it accepted breezily in trans matters?

It's been pointed out by several people now that the Kirklees case wasn't a legal precedent. The OP hasn't acknowledged those posts or been back to the thread. I expect it was all too exhausting having to listen to people she disagrees with, and having to engage with people when they refute her claims.

And yet, the majority of the UK disagree that if a male still has a penis that they should use female single sex spaces.

Considering between 85% and 95% of males who have trans identities (I did see links for this on this thread I believe) that is a significant statement.

Adding this link for the lyougov poll

yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

I believe it is in here.

A question first asked about general should trans people use the toilets they want to and this was supported.

The question was asked again stating penis status and the numbers supporting dropped dramatically.

The second question is never mentioned by extreme trans rights activists. And I think it is very relevant to OP’s contributions.

Strange how the OP disappeared too.

See I find this really interesting @WineDup . I really ponder this a lot when women write that they would be fine sharing any initiate space with any men at all. I absolutely take your feelings on this as completely truthful of how you feel, but I really struggle to not question it.

I was in the leisure centre women's loos and turned the corner and a male member of staff was in a cubicle fixing something. He turned around and I screamed. He was about 18, no taller or bigger than me, and absolutely mortified. He apologised and immediately left. My heart was racing and I felt on edge while I used the toilet. When I left he was waiting in the corridor and apologised again, pointed out that there was a cone and warning sign but he was sorry I hadn't clocked it, and returned to his task. He was clearly a kind, respectful, non threatening male. He didn't enjoy the scenario either. As yet, ever since, I've been a bit more wary in those toilets and I'm on edge when using the showers there. I'm not an anxious person, nor even particularly private or shy - I get changed on beaches etc. But there was something about feeling alone in an enclosed space with a man I wasn't expecting to be there that really shook me. And if that man had been a physical threat? Given off dodgy vibes? Not left when it was clear I was uncomfortable?

Sorry, mn keeps cutting a deleting sections of my post.

I was also in hospital recently after a vaginal bleed in which I haemorrhaged. I was in a bay with other women but they all had make visitors. Male visitors who I have no reason even had a passing interest in me or my issues, and who were wholly focussed on loving and caring for their sick relative. And yet, the presence of those males while I was bleeding onto my sheets, shuffling out to the loo with my sanitary products and clean pants, discussing my bleeding, gynae history, sexual health with staff behind a flimsy curtain...distressed me. I cried when they arrived at visiting time. I had to make sure I was wearing suitable clothes and a bra at all times despite feeling so unwell, because I had no way of securing privacy and space away from those men. The women, the disghters, the female nurses did not in any way cause the same feelings of distress.

I get that you don't feel like that. But I can't imagine feeling unbothered like you. I am seriously bothered and want to be able to say no to men around me when I feel like that.

@mnhq if I try to edit my posts at all they delete!

That does seem like a good solution but as we keep seeing, it is nit acceptable for male born trans people who only wish to use female only spaces.

The mixed pond at Hampstead Heath is a case in point. The perfect solution apparently but no, male born trans people wish to use the womens pond. So women get no women only spaces but males can use all three - on a self id basis obviously.

A gym in Canada is currently in the news as a male born trans person has rejected the offer of using the mixed sex sessions they provide and wants the women only sessions. Their appearance would not make them out of place in the mens sessions.

We have even come across non binary people born male who demand to access the female only gyms sessions or one wanted to be patted down in the female queue for a nightclub with a female bouncer (I think that one was dealt with by a firm ‘no’ but the nightclub received an avalanche of abuse and protest on this).

Many hospital policies allow male born trans people and non binary people of either sex to choose whether to be placed on a female or male ward - all explicitly on a self id basis of course despite some known issues of this leading to rape and sexual assault. They are not deemed serious enough issues to change the policy.

docs.cdn.yougov.com/74l25pslh3/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

This is a good study on general feeling towards the impacts of trans rights on those for females.

page 13 asks about inclusion in toilets, changing rooms, sports and refuges.

page 17 asks the same question but about non-surgical males.

I would be interested for YouGov to run this poll again with the exact same respondents. I predict after this Scottish GRR bill, that the numbers would swing even more heavily towards excluding males from single sex spaces .

All males.

Using words like ‘woman’ for any male is emotionally manipulative. Hence we had a poster who flounced off the FWR board yesterday with a long complaint. The main complaint was that we persisted in calling a male a male. It showed the inconsistency in their every argument. All that poster has left after weeks of posting was emotional manipulation.

That is exactly what those insisting that these males are called women want. Because then males can be seen to be included. For example: ‘women’s’ sport. No! The issue is that it is sport for female people. That is just the start.

Language is so powerful. It is imperative that the words to describe female people of any age is clearly defined in law.

It is noticeable just how much of this thread was about people refusing to define the words they used.

People know and understand.

So many people started at being kind. But to say that the majority of people support trans people is only superficially true.

When the actualities of this support is probed, then no. Only an extreme minority, for whatever reason, support the current demands that are presented as ‘trans rights’.

The dishonesty in use of language and ambiguity around laws and the lack of robust evidence becomes clearer every day. OP is in the minority because they support the extreme end of trans rights activism.

So many people started at being kind. But to say that the majority of people support trans people is only superficially true.

When the actualities of this support is probed, then no. Only an extreme minority, for whatever reason, support the current demands that are presented as ‘trans rights’.

This. It's a lie, and I'm tired of it. Gaslighting. Women support fluffy, meaningless statements like "everyone should be able to identify as the gender they want to". The majority of women do not support males in women's spaces unless they have had what used to be called "sex change surgery", ie they have had their penis inverted to form a simulacrum of a vagina. Obviously they can't have an actual vagina, as it connects to a whole female reproductive system that males don't have.

Also, the majority of women do not support making it easier to get a GRC. They do not support giving GRCs or puberty blockers to children. They do not support males competing against females in non mixed sports.

So, it's a half truth. All they support is that some males can call themselves women, and if they have full physical surgery, they can use women's spaces. I disagree, but I'm not going to lie about the majority view, unlike trans rights activists.

”it wouldn’t bother me”
“I don’t care”
”hasn’t impacted me/my children”

This is not targeted at any poster.

However, when posters make this argument without then following up with ‘however I know it does other women/families/children’, all this tells us is that they are in a privileged position on this particular issue. (Ie. Not a statement of general privilege)

It usually is a great indication that these posters are either not understanding the complexity and breadth of the issues impacted, or are heavily invested in some way, or lack the empathy to understand that others do have needs. There may be other reasons, but these are the main ones I come across.

It is right that trans people are well protected and have the services they need.

That cannot come at the expense of anyone else. Solutions have to be found to ensure women and children’s needs are not deprioritised to accommodate the needs of others.

It is not kind to ignore the voices of women and children in this.

It is not progressive.

It is not tolerant.

It is not ‘lefty’.

Yet these words so commonly feature in the posts of those who use the words ‘it doesn’t bother me’, (without acknowledging it does bother someone else).

I was also in hospital recently after a vaginal bleed in which I haemorrhaged. I was in a bay with other women but they all had make visitors. Male visitors who I have no reason even had a passing interest in me or my issues, and who were wholly focussed on loving and caring for their sick relative. And yet, the presence of those males while I was bleeding onto my sheets, shuffling out to the loo with my sanitary products and clean pants, discussing my bleeding, gynae history, sexual health with staff behind a flimsy curtain...distressed me. I cried when they arrived at visiting time. I had to make sure I was wearing suitable clothes and a bra at all times despite feeling so unwell, because I had no way of securing privacy and space away from those men. The women, the disghters, the female nurses did not in any way cause the same feelings of distress.

I get that you don't feel like that. But I can't imagine feeling unbothered like you. I am seriously bothered and want to be able to say no to men around me when I feel like that.

I feel the same

The long and short of it is that this is an important subject for women and girls, and we're going to keep discussing it and campaigning about it.