To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

culturally specific stereotypes associated with their sex who then have preferred to adopt the culturally specific stereotypes associated with the opposite sex

When a trans man takes testosterone to develop a broken voice and body hair and has a mastectomy to have a flat chest, which ‘culturally specific stereotypes’ do you think they are adopting?

Well, how come I don’t have a gender identity then, or anyone I know ? I know my sex. I don’t have any sense of a gender identity. How does this supposed identity that we all have manifest itself ?

Mental distress, common in adolescents, particularly female. It was anorexia 30 years ago, cutting 15 years ago, now its massive elective surgeries and cross sex hormones. I suspect it'll be another thing next decade, goodness knows what.

When a girl takes testosterone or undergoes a mastectomy in order to appear more masculine, she's attempting to align her appearance to the kind of body the prevailing cultural stereotypes say should match her personality.

Well, how come I don’t have a gender identity then, or anyone I know ? I know my sex. I don’t have any sense of a gender identity. How does this supposed identity that we all have manifest itself ?

How does your human identity manifest itself? Or do you not have one of them?

Also you say this gender identity is linked to sexuality, strange then that until very recently most people claiming a trans identity were male homosexuals. Very few were lesbians. Now there are many heterosexual males, heterosexual girls, but few adult lesbian women. Why would this be, if we all have a gender identity, and it is linked to our sexuality ? Oh and “more fundamental” than personality, and yet can change.
Hmm…

How is this claimed "gender identity" distinguishable from simply knowing what sex I am?

Can gender identity be scanned for? Will a blood test show it?

I know my schizophrenic friend truly does hear the voices. He knows they're in his head, but he 100% hears them speaking to him, telling him dreadful things. Nobody else will ever hear them, and he takes medication to quieten them down, but they'll never go away.

Is gender identity like this? Does it speak to some people and interrupt their peace?

What makes it go away? Detransitioners, I mean.

How is your human identity distinguishable from simply knowing that you are a human?

What's my "human identity"?

My human identity is cat. Those little buggers are lazy gits and I'd like a slice of that, please. No work, no chores. Bliss.

I don't have a human identity. I am a human. It's an objective material fact. Even if I were not conscious of it I would still be a human. The same goes for being female. Regardless of whether or not I am conscious of being female, materially I am female. When they dig us up in 30 000 years, they will know our sex and our species.

No. I don't have a human identity. I just am human. No one would dispute that. Just like no one would dispute that I am female.

Only those who are quite clearly not. Have to "identify as".

I can't understand this. You say gender identity exists. What does that mean?
Some people have an identity that could call a gender identity?
No not really. We all have a human identity. That identity has a sexed aspect. Part of our self concept. We all have an internal representation of ourselves. Gender identity is that aspect of human identity relating to the sexed/ gendered aspect. Your internal representation of yourself that includes an understanding of who and what you are, including a very strong sense of whether you’re a man or a woman. (Or neither in rare cases).

Lets try and unpick this bit first. It's still very hard to make sense of.
What is a human identity? Does this mean anything other than 'knowing I human?'. If not, why are you calling this identity rather than knowledge?

If your gender identity is the internal representation of yourself, how is that different from just knowing you are a man or a woman because that's what people with penis/ vagina (as appropriate) are called. What is gained by calling this an identity? Why do you assume that people have a 'strong sense' of whether you're a man or woman? The people I know only have a 'sense' (aka knowledge - or do you mean something else?) that they are a man/ woman because that's what people with their body type are called. You are suggesting an almost universality of a 'strong sense'. I dispute that being true but if you have research data where a proper representative sample of people who were asked actual clear questions about whether they 'have a strong sense of a male/ female identity' and confirmed that they do, then I am happy to accept that I an my friends are outliers.

Can gender identity be scanned for? Will a blood test show it?

Some would say yes it can be scanned for. (Evidence is weak).
Can depression be scanned for? Does a blood test show it? Do we need one?
Can sexual orientation be scanned for or have a blood test?

Your example of Schizophrenia. Do we scan or blood test? No, but we still believe it exists by observing and talking to them. We can treat it as well. Clinical outcomes improve.

What makes it go away? Detransitioners, I mean.

Thats a huge topic.
I don’t think gender identity ‘goes away’. Sometimes people go down the wrong path.
Sometimes a person has a weak or developing gender identity and chooses a certain route before their gender/ sexual identity formation is complete or has resolved.

As I think you know, gender dysphoria can have several causes. One of which is a cross sex core gender identity (transsexuality). Others include: trauma. Abuse. Contagion. Sexual orientation confusion. Internalised homophobia. Gender non conformity. Paraphilia. Psychosis. ASD. (Not that autism and transsexuality are necessarily mutually exclusive. There may even be common developmental neurological factors).

Some people may have a gender identity that is very much in the middle of the spectrum and have difficulty understanding who they are. They may make a change and then only by having experienced that realise it’s not right for them. Some detransitioners have told me that is the case.

Normal teenage development and subculture. Only they get their hands on hormones when they shouldn’t.

Dysphoria that would have resolved to homosexuality (desistance) but they transition when they shouldn’t have.

Gender identity is just a new term for "personality".

How does it relate to biology?
There’s a view that identity exists in the brain as some sort of emergent property of a neural network. (What actually is human consciousness?)
There is broadly such a thing as brain sex; male and female brains are on average different - Helen believes that as well btw.
Androgenisation (during foetal development) changes brains and can happen to greater or lesser extents. It can influence (drive even) sexual orientation. There are links between sexual orientation and gender identity.
Physical sex, environment, culture, sexuality and ‘brain sex’ all influence the development of gender identity. Most people develop a gender identity in line with their physical sex. I think most child development/ mental health professionals believe that in 99% (or whatever) of (non trans) people it’s clearly developed and permanent by about age 3.
I’m trying to describe things that are to some extent abstract it’s not easy! Some aspects of human development and existence are more abstract. Not everything is black and white/ RCTable/ empirically verifiable. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist or are not important/ universal.

OK, then this bit. I think you've missed some bits in your explanation here. Some brain differences between males and females, does not evidence a gender identity. The presence of identity itself does not evidence a universal gender identity or indeed a need for gender identity to be something which can't be captured in the generic identity concept. Who says most people develop a gender identity in line with their sex? But I guess answering this requires us to go back to the 'what is gender identity' question and this again points to the need not to conflate 'know I'm a woman because that's what we call people with vagina's' with 'identify as a woman' - they're not the same thing. Where is the evidence that trans kids are less able to identify whether they have a male or female body? Or do you mean something else? Are you saying that trans kids know what they are but wish they were something else? But then how is that different from my knowing I'm fat and wishing I wasn't? Or knowing I'm dark haired and wishing I was blonde? if something is not verifiable how can we be sure it's universal? if just one person does not have a gender identity does that challenge the universality argument? What if 1000s or millions don't (which I actually think is the case in the UK - I think those with gender identities are very much the minority).

Can gender identity be scanned for? Will a blood test show it?
Some would say yes it can be scanned for. (Evidence is weak).
Can depression be scanned for? Does a blood test show it? Do we need one?
Can sexual orientation be scanned for or have a blood test?
Your example of Schizophrenia. Do we scan or blood test? No, but we still believe it exists by observing and talking to them. We can treat it as well. Clinical outcomes improve.

So what are we observing and talking to people about when we are looking for gender identity?

A quick post...

For me all this is still falling into the category of fallacy that at it's simplest is...

"Hey, here's a thing we see in a lot of women! It must be a feature of womanhood."

"No wait, looks like some men have it too."

"Oh wow! That means some men are really women!"

Or you know, it could just mean that thing isn't exclusive to women after all.

What it boils down to is this. Woman and Man make sense as names for the two sexes of the human species, labelling nothing more than that.

If you start to make them mean more than that, to encompass aspects of the mind like character traits, or aptitudes, or physical presentation beyond the differences of sex, you unavoidably also introduce exceptions. At which point you either say "oh, I guess this extra stuff isn't really part of it after all", or you double down and eventually end up with having to have a concept of trans to patch the gap between what your model says man and women should be like and how people actually are.

Sometimes a person has a weak or developing gender identity and chooses a certain route before their gender/ sexual identity formation is complete or has resolved.

How does this fit with your claim that in 99% of people gender identity is "clearly developed and permanent by about age 3"?

According to you gender identity is both "clearly developed and permanent by about age 3" and also continuing to develop well into adulthood.

And how can a 3-year-old understand what a gender identity is, when you can't even explain to the adults posting on here what it is?

Perhaps the gender identity is all a red herring anyway. Things which are that abstract and socially constructed are perhaps not the best way to structure a society.

However, sex is not socially constructed, does not change and is observable and verifiable.

And whilst billions of people around the globe are oppressed because of their female body type, protections should be for those people who have the body type associated with oppression. As the oppression is not moderated by identity, and possibly most of those women don't have a gender identity, the protections should also not be moderated by identity (meaning no TW in women's facilities but TM should be welcome to use them).

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Have you ever actually been in a situation where someone who has the physical characteristics you described has shared a female only space, eg a toilet or a changing room? Asking genuinely as I’ve never been in that situation.

Personally it wouldn’t bother me if I was, but I get that not everyone feels comfortable with it.

Personally it wouldn’t bother me if I was

I think that probably depends on the male in question, to be honest. You should see some of the males that openly use women's spaces for their own reasons.

Because queer theory has found a home on the left of politics, and because women who believe in sex get accused of being fascists or collaborators with the far right.