To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

Thing is, when you say that males are not men and are just transwomen (I don't think transwomen are women but I certainly don't think they're men as alleged earlier) you redefine the category of men and therefore the category of woman.

and when you say "No one seems willing to accept that there are people in this world that want to mind their own business while living as the opposite gender" you assume that a) 'living as the opposite gender' is a meaningful statement (it's not to me and many others) and b) doing whatever that involves has no knock on effect on women and women's spaces.

If you're now saying that you don't want any males in women's spaces (as any single male allowed in is a boundary breach) then I think you need to consider whether your language is helping or hindering that.

Of course there are many trans people who want to just live their life. There are a vocal few TW who are very clear that TW are not W. Those people are largely not creating problems. They are simply a male (therefore man but we don't have to run their noses in it most of the time) doing whatever they think it is or feeling what they think women do/ feel. It's vaguely offensive to me because it suggests any person can understand the experience of another but it's not the problematic behaviour of men in women's spaces or trying to obscure language for healthcare for example.

If that's how TW were living, the debate would not be this heated. But those TW do not need a GRC - in fact perhaps they recognise that a GRC is meaningless. They are and always will be male.

I think perhaps you are arguing for full exclusion of all biological males from all female language and spaces. If that is the case, I would be interested to know what you think a GRC actually offers? I'd also be interested to know whether you think that males in rape victims women's groups and running women's refuges is inappropriate and if you stand as solidly against that as you are against some thing here.

And thanks for the fantastic resource list @Baldieheid If this thread is an echo chamber it's a very useful echo chamber!

Perhaps this points to definitional issues again though. I didn't find it transphobic. Lots of others didn't. How can we move a conversation forward if we're talking about wildly different things but using the same term to describe it?

AGP people are trans.

I choose not to become part of some AGP's sex life thanks.

I've had experience of men AGPing in my space and part of the kink is the fact that the women they include in their obvious sex life is uncomfortable with that.

So I think I have the right to talk about it being that I experienced it.

Pretending that all women who encounter this should shut up about it or we might upset trans people, isn't my problem.

But you know that discussing cross dressing /sexual gratification in the same discussion as trans is going to colour peoples' view on transpeople and that is not right.

Isn't it? I think it's more important to make it clear that women and girls need privacy and safeguarding from abusive males. Not all males are abusive, but most nice men don't get a special pass into women's spaces, so neither should MTF male people.

People from this community are today literally fantasising about decapitating women who have the temerity to campaign for female spaces, with idiot politicians standing next to them. There is a big misogyny problem in the trans movement, and I don't feel safe with some of these male people.

twitter.com/jhalcrojohnston/status/1616795470721961984?s=20&t=rF-obYPwdfh4fTXrfBHHHg

It was raised by a local woman on here who went to that school.

Are you saying she is a liar?

I don't remember saying you should shut up about it. I can see why AGP as a whole doesnt havea place in trans discussions though, in the same way I cant stand that appalling anorexia analogy. FWIW, I am truly sorry that happened to you. We might all have opposing views but I mean that genuinely.

Re - your bus story, no I'm not calling her a liar. What I am saying is that a debate of that size cannot be decided or not by stories like that.

They are part of the trans community under the trans umbrella.

Are you denying that there is a sexual fetish aspect to some trans people’s identity?

Of course I'm against anyone except biological women in rape groups.

Refuges? I think that's an interesting discussion. Do we allow biological men to have any job in a refuge?

I'm still finding my way with the GRC.

They shouldn't be.

Suggestion to check out www.transwidowsvoices.org

A campaign group with a brilliant leader, herself a "trans widow" as they are known, which was born from a support thread here on Mumsnet, and documents the harm that some autogynephile MTF trans people have caused to their wives and children.

The behaviours described have all the hallmarks of an abusive relationship, and I personally, as a survivor of coercive control DB, find the dynamics of the way women are treated in this debate very similar.

DV, damn autocorrect

But you know that discussing cross dressing /sexual gratification in the same discussion as trans is going to colour peoples' view on transpeople and that is not right.

Are you saying that you need to know someone's motivation in order to accept their trans identity?

Erotic crossdressers are part of the trans community. If someone self ID's as something then that's exactly what they are.

Excluding crossdressers sounds a bit gatekeepy which is very transphobic.

Preaching to the choir there, I'm Scottish and appalled at our latest choices.

Honestly, why are you trying to deny that cross dressers are officially under the ‘trans umbrella’. It has been for a very long time.

They are trans people if they say they are. Just like every other trans person is.

It is not transphobic to discuss them. It IS transphobic to deny their trans status though.

Nah it's not.

I learned earlier in this thread you can just say something isn't transphobic and it makes it not, so I'm claiming that one.

And no. I'm saying someones intention is key to the debate.

Are you denying that there is a sexual fetish aspect to some trans people’s identity?

this is the thing

personally I believe that some people honestly feel like they are the opposite sex and they are what i would consider to be transwomen

i think that some men get a sexual kick out of dressing and being treated as a women

and i think that some men and women choose to opt out of gender stereotypes

i think that some people are persuaded into identifying as the opposite sex due to homophobia or trauma

oh and some are men who are pulling a fast one just because they can

i think that there any many different reasons why someone would identify as or consider themselves to be trans

what doesn’t help is when we have to pretend that all of these reasons are good reasons or valid or whatever

I said they shouldn't be. Not that they're not.

And as I've just posted, I learned earlier you can just be not transphobic if you say you're not, so that must go all ways.

And no

i don’t think ive said anything transphobic in the above post

For all that I think we'd disagree on the colour of the sky, I am truly sorry to hear you have been through that.

Ok. Good for all of us to understand where you are coming from, thanks.

For all that I think we'd disagree on the colour of the sky, I am truly sorry to hear you have been through that.

Thank you. It colours my opposition to the whole trans political agenda. It's coercive. It's not in women's interests. Our voices and feelings are ignored and despised.

I don't think so re men is refuges set up for women.

What you say here I agree with. Bwhich means that you are gc and will be considered to be a terf/ transphobe.

Have you argued against males in sports, prisons etc.?

But you know that discussing cross dressing /sexual gratification in the same discussion as trans is going to colour peoples' view on transpeople and that is not right.

It is indeed right to discuss them together, because not doing that creates an illusion that trans is never really about sexual fetishism, or that it doesn't matter if it is, and that's not right either.

We just can't afford to ignore these other kinds of trans and not talk about them all together fear it might colour people's view of transpeople. We can only talk honestly about te different kinds and not exaggerate and put people right when it colours their view and the colour is wrong.

Oh so finally we agree that this is a big debate. And not being over stated as in the OP.

Incidentally, one of the AGPs that used to invade [my] female spaces was doing so in an open to the public facility and had regular school visits [think 2-3 a day, 4-5 days a week]. And he used to use the women's public toilets. Where school girls were. As you don't seem to be up with the ways that men behave, many, many men gravitate towards jobs where they work with kids in various guises for many, many reasons other than wanting kids to live their best lives. And AGP is a key risk factor in many highly risky activities including serial killers. So in my opinion it is crucial for it to be part of the discussion. As it is the highest risk.

Unfortunately the people that will bear the brunt of this progressive shift into pretending men are not men are the most vulnerable. The stakes are high and it is up to us, the least vulnerable to be gobby about it. Even if it means being threatened with being decapitated for it.

It is that important for men to gain access that they would willingly kill women to get it. That's the point.