To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

So you're refusing to debate, but insist we're wrong and are just sitting in an echo chamber.

I'm listening.
You're refusing to engage.

Who is creating the echo chamber?

I don't much care. I just think those who may be undecided would appreciate a thoughtful, coherent explanation of your position, allowing them to weigh up all the information.

Refusing to engage makes you appear to have no rational arguments.

You'll never persuade me, I've already done the thinking, but you're really shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to the undecided.

You really need to deal with that wee obsession with me you have. It's really getting quite uncomfortable.

the projection

Take a scroll of the feminist boards. Youl find a lot of because I said so, we say no, enough, etc.

Its telling that a refusal on a forum to answer questions results in this. Speaking of people struggling with boundaries.

If I dont want to define gender and sex to a poster, I really dont have to. It's ironic this whole mini debate started with people being astonished it was suggested this is an echo chamber.

If you say so.

I try my best to ignore your posts.

You pretend to by just quoting everything that disagrees with me or talking about me directly and then being shocked when I reply, then comes the self indulgent accusation.

Its slightly amusing but getting tedious.

No you don't have to. But then don't use your idiosyncratic definition as the basis to remove sex-base rights.

I'm going to stop replying to the poster who comes on multiple interesting and productive threads and derails them with their inane, chippy posts and makes it all about themselves.

because without knowing what you man by men and women, your assertion that TW are not men is meaningless and silly.

Don't be disingenuous, allowing male bodied people into women's spaces on the basis of an identity you won't define, or any other motivation to say 'i'm a lady' is clearly taking rights away - the right not to have male bodied people in women's spaces.

Another sex offender who will be able to self ID to gain a GRC and a move to a female prison. Irrelevant piece of admin that doesn't affect female rights my ass.

These people just don't care about these women. They're normally smug, privileged women who are never going to see the inside of a jail.

No feminist advocates for women to be forced to take communal showers with men.

Or they're men.

No decent human being advocates for teenage girls to have their healthy breasts removed.

'I think men can say words and immediately be women'

'Oh, how does that work then'

'I can't explain as you will rip my words to pieces'

'Hmm.....'

The echo chamber has been created because people with opposing views generally stay clear of anything to do with trans issues on Mumsnet (if they go on mumsnet at all). Nobody wants to be shouted down, insulted and bullied and anyone who has been on this site for long enough knows that will happen if they try to give an opposing view on trans threads. If people genuinely want to debate they go elsewhere.

Can you say what you disagree with

eg single sex spaces - should they exist

Mostly I post people can’t change sex and should have single sex spaces which isn’t controversial is it?

I just wish people could get their heads around the fact that this is not ‘anti-trans’ - this is anti male-bodied people being allowed a statutory free pass to gain access to women and girls - sometimes in extremely vulnerable situations -whenever they damn well like.

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender

Full disclosure: I am GC and I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender.

There are a lot of assumptions about ‘what other people believe’. Exacerbating the polarisation of views and behaviour.

Perhaps you could question how you (not you) personally are asking. Is one genuinely asking for welcome debate and acceptance this isnt a black and white issue or is one demanding? One is quite different to the other

I’m not quite sure which exact words you would find acceptable in my request for some answers and a fuller explanation of your position but you just let me know what you’re looking for.

I am not ‘demanding’ anything - I am trying to understand the argument you are putting forward.

As I asked the other poster who keeps complaining that this is an echo chamber- please summarise the main points of your argument.

Here’s mine:

• Biological sex is real and important in some situations.
• Single sex spaces, sports and facilities are important for the privacy of most women - (I acknowledge that some are not bothered but that shouldn’t remove the option for the majority)
• It should not be possible to change factual documents like birth certificate.
• It should not be possible to be counted in official stats as if one was a member of the opposite sex
• It should not be possible to put anyone born male in a female prison or hospital ward. There are other options available.
• Toilets and changing rooms open to the public should either remain single sex or at a push the male toilets should be made ‘gender neutral’ (men are free to object to this as they are also entitled to privacy) - we should certainly not make the ladies mixed sex.
• Girls and women are entitled to a closed female only category in all sports. If sporting bodies want to bake an Open category that doesn’t affect the women’s, that is fine.

Right, that’s your starter for 10.

You don’t need to address any of my points if you don’t want to but please can you share some of yours.

That's great. What do you mean by "women's rights"? Why do women need different rights to men?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2a58f174-9902-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=c13065216436e90d5d3516c6ab9b2e22

I’ve just read this article and it perfectly sums up my thoughts about the situation, the writer articulates so well how many women I know feel.

On a personal level - as a Muslim, knowing that I or any of my Muslim sisters could never access women's only safe spaces because there’s a chance that a man (be it a predatory man in disguise or a “trans” woman who still has male genitalia) may be there is deeply worrying. When Muslim women flee, generally they’re not fleeing from their faith - so would still require to live by the Quran, and not live with non-mahram men - they’re fleeing from an abusive family member or spouse. There are so many misogynistic, controlling men in the Muslim community that I genuinely fear for the safety and lives of many sisters who literally won’t have anywhere to go.

Given what I just said regarding why people don't debate on trans issues on Mumsnet, why do you think I would answer your question?

People aren't astonished that it's been suggested that this is an echo chamber. It comes up with tedious regularity. What they are asking is that you actually debate your point of view in order that it is not an echo chamber. Because you can do what you want, if you don't want to define gender and sex then that's entirely up to you. It would however help to actually forward why you think legislation should be changed which doesn't centre around 'because I said so' so that those undecided people reading along can actually see your side of the argument. As a pp said, if you rely on 'because I said so', then those undecided people see clearly how poor your argument is. It's up to you really.

(And as an aside, on the FWR board, the phrase 'this is my no' or similar is generally used when women are told that they have to use compelled speech when referring to a rapist for example. You'll find very few (if any?) posts where posters refuse to define something or give examples/links etc)

The echo chamber has been created because people with opposing views generally stay clear of anything to do with trans issues on Mumsnet (if they go on mumsnet at all). Nobody wants to be shouted down, insulted and bullied and anyone who has been on this site for long enough knows that will happen if they try to give an opposing view on trans threads. If people genuinely want to debate they go elsewhere.

So you don’t want to debate at all?

You’re going to tell us anything about your reasoning behind you different opinions to ours? Where have you seen people being ‘shouted down, insulted and bullied’?

Certainly not here unless you can provide examples.

So why did you engage on this thread? Lots of people are discussing and sharing ideas. If you don't find it helpful and don't want to define things in order to start a proper conversation, why not go elsewhere and do something else instead?