To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

Thank you @FlirtsWithRhinos for your clear explanation of how the goalposts are being moved and how the GRR helps to move them further. I'm saving it for future reference!

Here is Kate Coleman, director of campaign group Keep Prisons Single Sex, reading a statement from a female prisoner formerly locked up with abusive males, who took the government to a judicial review after she was sexually assaulted but sadly lost:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NfHRtjPSBi4

"Being in prison with male prisoners you always feel on edge. You know something could happen at any time. We know that they're not women, they're physically threatening and aggressive. I was sexually assaulted and I'm not the only woman who has been. They haven't had surgery and they expose themselves.

One of them had been told he couldn't shower at the same time as us women. He made a formal complaint and said that this was a breach of his human rights. So now he is allowed to shower with us. And because he has that right, the other males have that right too. There's only a shower curtain between us, and he moves the curtain so we can all see his penis, when he's washing himself or shaving his legs. This is disgusting, and I think it is disgusting that the prison allows this, but we can't complain about anything.

These males are very well protected, and it feels like our rights as women just don't count. We have to call them she and her and have to use their female names. If we don't, we are punished and lose our enhanced prisoner or D-category status. It's horrible to do that to women in prison. I can't understand how anyone can say that imprisoning women alongside males is the right thing to do.

The prisoner who attacked me was convicted of the most serious sex offences against girls and still has his penis. How can the government say that putting him in prison with women is the right thing to do. It's not.

I'm out of prison now, but I think about all those other women still in prison who have to live with these males, this is dangerous, disgusting and wrong."

I engaged/agreed with OP’s point that trans issues are very low on the list of most people’ concerns.

Of course you don't have to. But your inability or unwillingness to so do makes your views on this matter all quite farcical.

Any thoughts about women being forced to see penises and shower with abusive males, @orchid220?

Well I’m not being aggressive to you but interested in what is controversial about my statements. So even when there’s no threat of aggression there’s no answer.

It’s a bit hard to change mn if even simple normal questions can’t be asked.

I don't care if you don't need single sex facilities. I do. Stop trying to take my rights away.

One of them had been told he couldn't shower at the same time as us women. He made a formal complaint and said that this was a breach of his human rights. So now he is allowed to shower with us. And because he has that right, the other males have that right too. There's only a shower curtain between us, and he moves the curtain so we can all see his penis, when he's washing himself or shaving his legs. This is disgusting, and I think it is disgusting that the prison allows this, but we can't complain about anything.

In orchids defense, you arent, but others sadly dont follow that conduct. I can completely understand her reluctance.

I used to think I could change tbe undecided but all that happened was I got hammered on these threads.

@SweetSenorita if someone having boundaries makes them farcical thats fine

The reason men can make a case that it's a "breach of their human rights" to be prevented from showering naked with unconsenting women, is the whole basis of the GRA.

So if I don't spend hours searching through MNs for examples (that haven't been deleted) it doesn't happen🙄.. Why do you think there aren't many opposing views on MN with the regard to trans issues?

👏👏👏👏

Because they're all right Orchid, fs

I don't care if you don't need single sex facilities. I do. Stop trying to take my rights away.

Exactly, leave the majority of women, who polls show don't want male bodies in our spaces, alone.

I compete in amateur sport at a masters/ veteran (old git) level. I have a young child. I had to take time out of training and racing for pregnancy and the baby years. I'm now peri which is having a huge impact on my ability to train and recover. I'm absolutely sick to the back teeth of men smashing my races to bits in womens only races. I'm sick of seeing men on the womens podium at national masters level. A bit of fucking paper, or wearing a set of fake tits or having a naff ponytail or wearing a dress or whatever else DOES NOT remove their much bigger male heart or much bigger capacity male lungs or much bigger man muscles. These men have not endured pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding. They are not impacted by hormones that naturally fluctuate through the month. They do not have to deal with menopause. The governing body for my sport STILL has not got on board with this.

For reference. I'm a 'lefty' and feminist! A transwomen is not a woman. It's deeply frustrating how so many on the left have been utterly duped by this utter nonsense.

And no. I don't wish for transwomen to be excluded from competitive sport. They need their own category.

And there was the mum who, in order to have a visit from her children, had to be locked into a holding cell unsupervised for 15 minutes with a convicted male rapist.

This really is the stuff of nightmares and this is all officially sanctioned by the Ministry of Justice as ‘perfectly acceptable’.

If the proposed Scottish law doesn't change anything then ...... what's the point of it? What a fucking waste of time!

I just don't understand how anyone can read this and think it's fine. If someone could explain why it's ok, I'd be interested to hear. I wouldn't agree, but I'd like to know. Or if you don't think it's ok but also don't think it's worth thinking about, why is that?

Lols at the last comment given that the OP of this thread spent several pages demanding "the gender criticals" explain their concerns in a way that relies only on the very narrow constraints the OP was prepared to recognise as valid.

Lols also at about 3 posters ignoring many many opportunities to engage in debate in favour of posting to agree with each other that they are in an echo chamber 😂!

I just don't understand how anyone can read this and think it's fine. If someone could explain why it's ok, I'd be interested to hear. I wouldn't agree, but I'd like to know. Or if you don't think it's ok but also don't think it's worth thinking about, why is that?

The people who have only plopped onto the thread to have a go at women they disapprove of aren't interested in the women actually hurt by these laws and policies.

I also happily accept trans people as their chosen gender.

I just don't equate gender with sex. This isn't a controversial position and the official stance of most organisations is that sex and gender are different.

What you need to realise when people say "GRCs don't give automatic access to single sex spaces", what they're not saying (mostly, some do say the quiet bit out loud) is "there are no single sex spaces, only single gender".

Once you've legislated to make gender more important than sex, by making sex markers mean gender markers, single sex no longer means what most people think it means.

And gender is completely undefined in law - it means whatever the person claiming to be "living as a woman" wants it to mean under self id.

How are single sex spaces currently upheld with regards to trans women, and how will that change with the change in the law in Scotland? I've not had this explained in any meaningful or material sense, but you seem very passionate, so I'm sure you can do so for me?

There are some very informative articles on this in the Legal Feminist website and on Sex Matters. There is also the statement of reasons published by the government and the five letters/statements by the EHRC that explain the complications it causes.

And obviously some very knowledgeable women in here have explained the issues.

There has actually been abuse, personal attack and troll hunting directed at the OP on this thread. Some posts have been deleted. That breaks Talk Guidelines whether or not people agree with the OP.

Once you've legislated to make gender more important than sex, by making sex markers mean gender markers, single sex no longer means what most people think it means.

Exactly. I don't think a gender recognition certificate has any meaning outside legal fiction, and I think their existence is harmful to women and girls, so I certainly don't want it to be easier to get one. Is that simple enough?

@findmybalance As far as I can see, you have no fucking boundaries. But that wasn't what I said was farcical.

What IS farcical is you holding a view that this gender bullshit doesn't affect women, without being able to define a woman.

For the record, if you're born female and have the fortune to make it to adulthood, you're a woman. That's it. If you're born male, you will never be a woman.