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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

1000 replies

BarmyBrunhilde · 20/01/2023 22:18

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

OP posts:
BarmyBrunhilde · 21/01/2023 00:25

Perfectpeace · 21/01/2023 00:21

Only a man would wish to trample over the rights and dignity of women and girls. Starting this thread with your faux ‘help me understand’ crap, then wilfully ignoring the intelligent and informed women who question you.

No true feminist would ever support this nonsense.

gal-dem.com/transphobia-in-sexual-violence-services/ www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/10/feminist-solidarity-empowers-everyone-the-movement-must-be-trans-inclusive www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/01/nicola-sturgeon-rejects-un-concerns-about-reform-of-scotlands-gender-law www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/28/elizabeth-warren-trans-lgbtq-supporters what sex are these women out of interest?

OP posts:
SueVineer · 21/01/2023 00:25

Perfectpeace · 21/01/2023 00:21

Only a man would wish to trample over the rights and dignity of women and girls. Starting this thread with your faux ‘help me understand’ crap, then wilfully ignoring the intelligent and informed women who question you.

No true feminist would ever support this nonsense.

you may not be a man op but you are definitely not a feminist.

WalkthisWayUK · 21/01/2023 00:25

DEATH CERTIFICATES.

Facts. Data.

Very important to be accurate. 😊

Very bad to change sex on a death certificate and not be accurate. As a specific request of GRC. 😞

WalkthisWayUK · 21/01/2023 00:26

DEATH CERTIFICATES.

Facts. Data.

OP still unable to reply to this!

Waitwhat23 · 21/01/2023 00:27

There's very little point replying to this obviously goady thread but I will anyway, for the lurkers. And I will explain this as a woman, living in Scotland.

There's a reason that the GRR Bill is being referred to as the 'Rapist's Charter' here in Scotland.

www.nationalreview.com/news/transgender-sex-offenders-placed-in-womens-jails-in-scotland/

archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

The reforms to the GRC will make it even easier for predators to take advantage of self id. The SNP, Scottish Greens, Lib Dems and Scottish Labour voted against suggested amendments being put in place to restrict sex offenders from changing their gender, including -

an amendment to pause an application for a GRC for those charged with rape or sexual assault which was defeated by the casting vote of the Presiding Officer.

An amendment which sought to prevent convicted sex offenders being allowed to change their gender.

There were over 150 amendments, discussed over a ridiculously short 2 days, with the majority voted down, including a suggestion to yearly monitor the effects of the GRR Bill on women and girls rights.

The Scottish Government's hand was forced at the 11th hour to hold an additional evidence session because they had refused to hear from experts on VAWG. The 'feminist' groups in support of the bill are all majority funded by the Scottish Government (as reported in various news sources yesterday). Funding from the Scottish Government is contingent on being 'inclusive' which is why there are currently no single sex rape crisis services in the Lothians. The one which is in the process of being set up and has used the single sex exemptions allowed in the EQA2010 is being threatened with challenges for 'discrimination' - this is far from the only example - organisations are being informed (falsely) by lobby groups and others are facing the silencing effect.

The Scottish Government was warned repeatedly that the legislation was poor and conflicted with reserved legislation. They ignored it in their zeal to push it through and now section 35 has had to be invoked.

The SNP had to whip its members into voting for the Bill and even then, faced the biggest revolt by SNP MSP's since they came to power.

The Scottish electorate do not support this bill. There's been a hell of a lot of sunlight on this issue. There's real anger and dismay at the Scottish Government now.

lifeturnsonadime · 21/01/2023 00:27

WalkthisWayUK · 21/01/2023 00:26

DEATH CERTIFICATES.

Facts. Data.

OP still unable to reply to this!

Or what Gender is?

Pretty fucking important stuff that OP is failing to answer here.

Rainbowshit · 21/01/2023 00:27

FontSnob · 21/01/2023 00:21

Where do you go where everyone is just showing naked together?? I’ve never been anywhere that I’ve needed to shower next to a naked stranger. I’m so perplexed by the idea that I need to worry about my children being somewhere where they are having to shower with naked adults of any gender.

My gym has separate cubicles but all the doors are completely transparent so unless you shower in your gym kit....

howmanybicycles · 21/01/2023 00:28

howmanybicycles · 21/01/2023 00:05

At what percentage do you think we should stop allowing men to say they're women? You know rates are rising right?

OP you must have missed this question. What percentage of women not being actually female is ok? When should we say that no more males can say they're women?

SueVineer · 21/01/2023 00:28

lifeturnsonadime · 21/01/2023 00:17

trans people should not be able to change their legal sex in any circurmstances

And what about non-binaries? What are they changing their legal sex to?

Everyone has an observable biological sex. Same as age, height, etc. how you feel about it is irrelevant- it doesn’t change the fact. A trans identified man, even one who has had extensive genital surgery remains a man regardless of anyones feelings about it.

FontSnob · 21/01/2023 00:29

None of the gyms or swimming pools i’ve ever been in have had shared showers. And lets say an occasional one did, my kids wouldn’t use it anyway. Safeguarding has changed somewhat since the days of teachers being anywhere near showers.

WalkthisWayUK · 21/01/2023 00:30

lifeturnsonadime · 21/01/2023 00:27

Or what Gender is?

Pretty fucking important stuff that OP is failing to answer here.

I know! Seems to be quite good at goading, but not actualy arguing well backed up with truth, or data…

Rainbowshit · 21/01/2023 00:31

What about gender recognition on public boards OP?

Do you consider it not harmful to women that after the Haldane ruling boards could potentially be 50% men and 50% transwomen and be considered equality for females?

lifeturnsonadime · 21/01/2023 00:31

SueVineer · 21/01/2023 00:28

Everyone has an observable biological sex. Same as age, height, etc. how you feel about it is irrelevant- it doesn’t change the fact. A trans identified man, even one who has had extensive genital surgery remains a man regardless of anyones feelings about it.

I agree.

But given that men who say that they have a gender identity (which no one is able to define) can falsify their passports to say they are women I. am simply wondering what non -binaries falsify their passports to say because they also have a gender identity?

I was hoping the OP might shed some light.

SueVineer · 21/01/2023 00:31

Waitwhat23 · 21/01/2023 00:27

There's very little point replying to this obviously goady thread but I will anyway, for the lurkers. And I will explain this as a woman, living in Scotland.

There's a reason that the GRR Bill is being referred to as the 'Rapist's Charter' here in Scotland.

www.nationalreview.com/news/transgender-sex-offenders-placed-in-womens-jails-in-scotland/

archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

The reforms to the GRC will make it even easier for predators to take advantage of self id. The SNP, Scottish Greens, Lib Dems and Scottish Labour voted against suggested amendments being put in place to restrict sex offenders from changing their gender, including -

an amendment to pause an application for a GRC for those charged with rape or sexual assault which was defeated by the casting vote of the Presiding Officer.

An amendment which sought to prevent convicted sex offenders being allowed to change their gender.

There were over 150 amendments, discussed over a ridiculously short 2 days, with the majority voted down, including a suggestion to yearly monitor the effects of the GRR Bill on women and girls rights.

The Scottish Government's hand was forced at the 11th hour to hold an additional evidence session because they had refused to hear from experts on VAWG. The 'feminist' groups in support of the bill are all majority funded by the Scottish Government (as reported in various news sources yesterday). Funding from the Scottish Government is contingent on being 'inclusive' which is why there are currently no single sex rape crisis services in the Lothians. The one which is in the process of being set up and has used the single sex exemptions allowed in the EQA2010 is being threatened with challenges for 'discrimination' - this is far from the only example - organisations are being informed (falsely) by lobby groups and others are facing the silencing effect.

The Scottish Government was warned repeatedly that the legislation was poor and conflicted with reserved legislation. They ignored it in their zeal to push it through and now section 35 has had to be invoked.

The SNP had to whip its members into voting for the Bill and even then, faced the biggest revolt by SNP MSP's since they came to power.

The Scottish electorate do not support this bill. There's been a hell of a lot of sunlight on this issue. There's real anger and dismay at the Scottish Government now.

It’s absolutely horrifying how so many msps have behaved. That they have so little regard for women is disgusting.

Rainbowshit · 21/01/2023 00:31

FontSnob · 21/01/2023 00:29

None of the gyms or swimming pools i’ve ever been in have had shared showers. And lets say an occasional one did, my kids wouldn’t use it anyway. Safeguarding has changed somewhat since the days of teachers being anywhere near showers.

This is the "I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist" argument.

howmanybicycles · 21/01/2023 00:32

FontSnob · 21/01/2023 00:29

None of the gyms or swimming pools i’ve ever been in have had shared showers. And lets say an occasional one did, my kids wouldn’t use it anyway. Safeguarding has changed somewhat since the days of teachers being anywhere near showers.

You think everyone should stop using places with shared showers? You don't care about that meaning that a lot of people will have no exercise anymore? That seems the right solution to you over barring men from women's spaces?

Perfectpeace · 21/01/2023 00:33

I’m not sure what you are getting at? If those women think like you, they aren’t feminists either!

And why are you asking me what sex women are???

SueVineer · 21/01/2023 00:34

lifeturnsonadime · 21/01/2023 00:31

I agree.

But given that men who say that they have a gender identity (which no one is able to define) can falsify their passports to say they are women I. am simply wondering what non -binaries falsify their passports to say because they also have a gender identity?

I was hoping the OP might shed some light.

if non binaries can falsify their passports, I want to falsify mine to make myself state pension age so I can retire 20 years early. That’s how I feel so why can’t I? Why aren’t my feelings as important as men?

WalkthisWayUK · 21/01/2023 00:34

SueVineer · 21/01/2023 00:28

Everyone has an observable biological sex. Same as age, height, etc. how you feel about it is irrelevant- it doesn’t change the fact. A trans identified man, even one who has had extensive genital surgery remains a man regardless of anyones feelings about it.

Yes it’s pretty important even if you just look at medical science.

This is built on observable data, sex being a major one. If we don’t know what sex someone is, when they are in hospital, when they have a disease, or when they recover, or when they die. Then we can’t advance care and treatment.

So you can feel as ‘whatever’ as you like! But change it on official records? Wow that’s got consequences.

How would we know for example whether diabetes affects women more than men, that they respond better to one treatment or another, if there is not the accurate data to back it up. And tiny percentages DO really matter here. A person’s ‘feelings’ do not trump medical treatment data and therefore decisions for the whole population.

BarmyBrunhilde · 21/01/2023 00:35

WalkthisWayUK · 21/01/2023 00:30

I know! Seems to be quite good at goading, but not actualy arguing well backed up with truth, or data…

www.waterstones.com/book/the-transgender-issue/shon-faye/9780141991801 Well this book really clarified my thinking on this, from you posting it seems like you could learn a lot from it! (Seems like listening and learn could be well applied for many others on this thread too 😌)

OP posts:
JaneorEleven · 21/01/2023 00:36

I'm in the US, used to live in California. The school mentioned in this article is the elementary school my kids would have been assigned, if we still lived there. The camp, Pali Institute, is a Science and outdoor Ed. Camp with a previously great reputation.

The thought of my 5th grade daughter being in a dorm overnight, with biological men who ID as non binary, is an utter nightmare for me. I’m not surprised the girls parents in this instance are as mad as hell.

My daughters school is planning a camping trip to a STEM camp in California. I’ve been on the phone with the camp and school, to ensure this doesn’t happen, and I’m not the only Mum who is concerned about her daughters safety.

This is a Fox News link, but it was also covered by the LA Times, Orange County Register and local TV news outlets, however they’re behind a paywall.

www.foxnews.com/media/california-parents-nonbinary-counselors-slept-camp-girls-education

lifeturnsonadime · 21/01/2023 00:36

SueVineer · 21/01/2023 00:34

if non binaries can falsify their passports, I want to falsify mine to make myself state pension age so I can retire 20 years early. That’s how I feel so why can’t I? Why aren’t my feelings as important as men?

I don't know if non binaries can falsify their passports.

But if other people with gender identities can falsify passports why can't they when they all have gender identities?

Why are some gender identifies more important when it comes to falsifying official documents than others?

Why isn't there a 'I don't have a sex' option on a passport.

God, am I giving them ideas?

howmanybicycles · 21/01/2023 00:36

howmanybicycles · 21/01/2023 00:28

OP you must have missed this question. What percentage of women not being actually female is ok? When should we say that no more males can say they're women?

Gosh OP. There is so much traffic on this thread that I think you missed this. Its a really important question though so please do answer.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 21/01/2023 00:36

The point is I could challenge any male in a female space right now because I know they are very unlikely to have a GRC. The fact that a GRC is offered to a much wider group means there will be more males accessing our spaces either under that process or outside it.
A lot more males and we would have way less recourse to challenge them.

Not just less recourse to challenge them, but you will be found guilty of a hate crime and punished accordingly, if the person can legally 'prove' that they are a 'woman'.

At the moment, a 'normal' transwoman, with no deliberate intent to do women any harm, could use women's single-sex facilities and, other than making women feel fearful and unsafe in using their own facilities, nothing horrendous (tangible) may come of it.

There will of course be that huge feeling of invasion - one which all decent males (whether transwomen or not) would obviously be aware of and, you would expect, would respect women's right and wish to have single-sex privacy and thus not invade - but some TW may be so wrapped up in their own little worlds that they somehow (initially) don't appreciate this.

With a GRC, the transwomen who DO intend women harm (or at the very least get off at the thoughts of their discomfort) can completely turn the tables on women, make them into the bad guys, themselves into the poor defenceless victims and, if they so desire, report those women for hate crimes, transphobia and anything else they want to try to stick on them. The same person who knows that they are making women feel unsafe by appropriating their single-sex spaces can then claim that those women are then making them feel 'unsafe'!

Put simply, they would have both the protections of being 'women', just like any woman, when it suits them; but also the protections of being transwomen, when that is more expedient. It's the same story of TRAs using the false pretext of transpeople having fewer rights than others in order to wrest more rights for themselves directly from other groups (i.e. women).

To simplify it even more, imagine that everybody is legally allowed to certify themselves as not-guilty of any serious crime. For the vast majority of us, this will make no difference at all - because we are not-guilty of serious crimes. The only minority that will benefit from this change in the law are the very ones that no right-thinking person would want to be able to benefit from it. However, nobody will ever even know that they have escaped justice on a technicality - because they are considered by default legally to be in exactly the same situation as all the rest of us wrt committing crimes - and in fact, it would actually be hateful for anybody to even mention their obvious perception of gross unfairness at this.

BarmyBrunhilde · 21/01/2023 00:37

Perfectpeace · 21/01/2023 00:33

I’m not sure what you are getting at? If those women think like you, they aren’t feminists either!

And why are you asking me what sex women are???

You assumed I was male because I disagreed with you, then when I challenged you on your false assumption, you justified it by saying that no woman could hold that view?

OP posts:
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