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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That schools should not be telling children they are born in the wrong bodies?

485 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/01/2023 08:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11646881/I-asked-daughters-teachers-not-call-boy-reported-social-services.html?s=08

This is so alarming now - just how many children do we think are born in the wrong bodies?

Is this not now just science fiction?

YABU - Rainbows are magic

YANBU - It's brainwashing. No child is born in the wrong body and schools must be held to account.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 16:37

sunshineandstrawberryjam · 18/01/2023 16:23

YABVU for posting here and not in the GC section and extra U for your wildly biased YABU = rainbows are magic. You blatantly don't think you are being U, you don't want to discuss or engage, you are not going to listen to anyone who disagrees with you, you just want to pontificate and those are always the most boring of AIBU posts.

We are all here and ready to read your own opinions on whether schools should or should not be socially transitioning children without their parents expressed consent.

Or are you just going to take the opportunity to shame posters that you disagree with for posting on AIBU where you could have just scrolled on past, but needed to come onto the thread to post this?

TheKeatingFive · 18/01/2023 16:40

Well there you have it folks. It's transphobic to state biological fact and to tell your children they are perfect just as they are.

if that's what it means, I'm very happy to own it.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 18/01/2023 16:43

Still no actual answer to the questions

What is trans?

A clear definition that covers everyone who claims to have one.

What is gender identity?

Without using sex role stereotypes or feelings......

People can self identify as whatever they want. It doesn't change their sex though or entitle males who 'identify as' women access to female only anything.

To identify as something means you know you are not the thing you identity as, so why should everyone else agree you are actually that thing?

It also should not require everyone else to use nonsense language or pretend words like women and lesbian now include male people.

Why do those who want to self identify as having a gender identity need to change their sex marker if sex and gender are two different things?

Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 16:45

HandScreen · 18/01/2023 15:49

Yes

Fuck! That is something to see.

lifeturnsonadime · Today 12:52
What is a transphobic home environment?

How do you define trans?

Is a transphobic home environment one where the adult says it's impossible to change sex and there is no wrong way to be a boy or a girl and you are perfect just as you are?

To which

HandScreen Today 15:49 posts

Yes

HandScreen, do you believe that you speak for trans people on this thread?

Yeahrightthen · 18/01/2023 16:50

The right to self-identify. I have no problem with trans people in sports or single-sex spaces.

Nor do most people - so long as they are competing in sports and entering single sex spaces according to the sex they actually are (the one they were registered at birth), not the one they have decided they are.
Luckily the powers above seem to feel the same way as per yesterday in the administering of section 35 to block the proposals of the SNP.

It seems on these threads there is always one side - the vast majority - who give facts, have common sense and engage in intelligent conversation regarding the matter - and the other side who resort to swearing, name calling and trying to bully anyone with an opposing view into a dark corner of the internet where no one can be upset by their discussion of the facts and the reality of what the trans-ideology is doing in regards to safeguarding children and women.

They never give an intelligent answer to any questions either - it’s just “tra la-la, get back in your box you evil bigot”. Deflect, deflect, deflect - every single time.

Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 17:02

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 18/01/2023 15:16

The majority of women in the UK support trans rights.

We do, which includes the rights to evidence-based suppport and to safeguarding. Secretly transitioning children at school - even socially - is not safeguarding.

So much of this debate is about others trying to shut down discussion and debate.

The reality is that there is such a lack of evidence for the current push for affirming only and it is of great concern. And the safeguarding issues become very clear however, the lack of safeguarding is hidden beside 'it is transphobic to question it'. Like that trans swimming session that was a hot topic of discussion. Where parents expressing concern that young people and children were going to be in a swimming pool with much older people and those young people and children could not have a parent with them poolside was considered the very height of transphobia.

Yet, just after that thread finished, we discovered this report.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/oversight-of-out-of-school-settings-lessons-learnt-from-the-dfe-funded-pilot

Right at the end it lists the most common complaints for out of school activities and Grooming/sexual abuse and Child Exploitation was the second highest risk that the study found was the basis for complaints, third was General safeguarding concerns, fourth was Extremism/radicialisation, fifth was more general safeguarding concerns followed by 'lack of appropriate boundaries' in regards to safeguarding young people.

The reality is that trans people need to be held up to the very same standard of safeguarding protocols for their sex (not their gender) as every one. No exemptions based on 'gender' for safeguarding.

No trans person deserves to have lesser quality of health treatment or lesser quality of safeguarding because some people are ideologically driven.

And you MumOfYoungTransAdult have hit the point very squarely.

"Secretly transitioning children at school - even socially - is not safeguarding."

Whatsnewpussyhat · 18/01/2023 17:02

They never give an intelligent answer to any questions either - it’s just “tra la-la, get back in your box you evil bigot”. Deflect, deflect, deflect - every single time

Yep. They can't answer the most basic of questions or give clear definitions because it's all illogical, completely contradictory, ever changing nonsense.

So all they can do is go on the attack and call us big meanies for having the audacity to point out the huge gaping holes in their feelings based ideology.

Get back in your box ladies. The emperor is stunning and brave. #beeeeekind.

IcakethereforeIam · 18/01/2023 17:02

Upthread, someone confidently asserted that transitioning wouldn't be more acceptable to bigoted families than having a gay child! I'll spare their blushes.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 18/01/2023 17:12

littlelid · 18/01/2023 09:37

Is there a section for trans hate?!

This is an issue of child safeguarding, not 'hate' toward either that child or anyone else.

It's no super-human feat of ingenuity to figure out why encouraging children to keep secrets from their parents - and for schools to collude with this - is a bad and dangerous idea.

This isn't just a question of sexuality, or the child wearing what they want, or even getting a tattoo, which although leaving a permanent mark on the body is likely to do little else. It's about a situation which can lead to a medicalized pathway, potentially leaving that child with sexual issues, lack of ability to experience orgasm, infertility, and possibly major health issues, some of which we might not even know about yet. And it's irreversible. This is forever.

The child is ASD, and there's a recognised correlation between young people on the spectrum and F2M transition. There is also no evidence that said transition even alleviates their distress. What is becoming evident is that numbers of detransitioners are growing exponentially.

You're questioning mothers who are afraid for their children and don't want that for them, or are concerned that transition is being jumped on as a first resort and without their consent? Really? Why?

Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 17:24

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 18/01/2023 14:10

As it is only happening in school I wouldn't even class it as a social transition.

Well, that's your view as a parent, but as an expert paediatritian Dr Cass did not agree.

And also think bout the wider context. The name (etc) change is imposed not just on the staff but on all the other children too. If you had not been told, are other children expected to keep secrets from you too? What about their own parents? Unless your child has no friends secrecy spreads beyond school.

It's not the same as a child pestering for an xbox and not being allowed to get one just because it's what they want

Well no, it is not the same. It is much more risky and complex, and not a decision that a school should override you to make. You're the parent. You felt it was best to let your children to experiment with names. Great! But what if the school had referred your children behind your back, on the assumption that you were pushing your other children towards transition?

"And also think bout the wider context. The name (etc) change is imposed not just on the staff but on all the other children too. If you had not been told, are other children expected to keep secrets from you too? What about their own parents? Unless your child has no friends secrecy spreads beyond school."

Yes, this is very important. My teen's girlfriend was NB and had transitioned at school (not school records) but had not told their parents. Who absolutely loved and supported their daughter.

It is not just the individual's friends, it becomes everyone's issue.

"Well, that's your view as a parent, but as an expert paediatritian Dr Cass did not agree."

And Dr Cass is right. By socially transitioning a child, that may lock them into a future that for so many reasons, that child or young person feels unable to change course from.

We have even seen this happening in adults. Ritchie, a male detransitioner has reported that the clinic would have discharged him if he did not go through surgery as they felt they had done all they could for him. He was a very vulnerable patient and ended up feeling pressured down a course of treatment that wasn't right for him.

There are so many unknowns. And a cohort of young female teenaged transitioners that need urgent research and care that is tailored to them. NOT treatment plans designed for males and ones that may be shaped by mature aged males and what they say their needs were for children and teens. I question even this because why are so many mature males seeking to put into place such harmful treatments for young children and teens?

There are so many questions that need to be asked. And I thank every parent that is asking these questions. Uncomfortable questions though they may be.

There should never be a situation where the school transitions any person without their parent's approval, and if there is abuse issues, they need to be referred onto the appropriate people.

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/01/2023 17:26

Is it transphobic to believe that trans people should have access to decent healthcare and education about their bodies?

Is it transphobic to want trans people to to have therapy and support from trained specialists to help them with gender dysphoria, which may not go away with hormones and surgery - especially if they don't end up looking the way they want to.

Is it transphobic to attempt to find out over a period of time if a child is struggling with gender dysphoria because of external influences or because of other developmental or disabilities? Because a high rate of destransitioners must be putting strain on the budget for trans healthcare surely?

Is it transphobic to tell people they are perfect just as they are? That plastic surgery is an option when they are older but that it's not a necessity? That they can dress how they want.

Is it transphobic to want to make sure that people going for these hormones and surgeries are completely aware of all the side effects - and that they are fully capable of looking after themselves of they have to have take time off work etc?

Is it transphobic to want to have specific categories for trans athletes so that no one gets injured, trans or otherwise?

Is it transphobic to want provision of safe unisex toilets in addition to and not instead of men and women's toilets?

Is it transphobic to want trans specific rape counselling services that offer a mix of groups - whilst respecting for some groups of women, being around a male bodied person after being raped by male bodied people is triggering and traumatic?

Is it transphobic to be concerned that children - especially vulnerable ones - could be being pressured into thinking that there is something wrong with them? Something that requires them to have life changing chemicals out into their bodies and extreme breast and penis amputations?

Is it transphobic to not want trans people to take their lives at all? But instead to create a world without hostility for them to exist in where their rights are not in conflict with other people's rights?

Is it transphobic to want trans people to not all be lumped in with predatory men or men with a sexual fetish for women's clothing?

Then we need to acknowledge that we have to ask questions. And that we need to also listen to other groups whose rights are now being removed in an attempt to ignore all the above questions. I would suggest that people who don't want equality for trans people are the ones running the show because as long as the above questions are not being dealt with, women like myself will hold our ground.

Is it transphobic to ask questions?

OP posts:
FOJN · 18/01/2023 17:37

Excellent post Wanda.

We appear to be guilty of so much transphobia and yet none of the people slinging insults and baseless accusations has even been able to tell us what "trans" actually means in 2023.

NecessaryScene · 18/01/2023 17:41

Not really contributing much to the thread, but I just wanted to highlight a slightly-but-importantly incorrect statement a couple of pages back.

A total of 262,000 people (0.5%) answered “No”, indicating that their gender identity was different from their sex registered at birth. Within this group:
118,000 (0.24%) answered “No” but did not provide a write-in response
48,000 (0.10%) identified as a trans man
48,000 (0.10%) identified as a trans woman
30,000 (0.06%) identified as non-binary
18,000 (0.04%) wrote in a different gender identity

The description of the big 118,000 group is not "no write-in response", it's "no specific identity given".

So all answers of the type "gender isn't real" or "how can a sex be the same as a gender?" would be counted in there. Which would explain why that bar is so big - it's doesn't seem likely that nearly half of "trans" people who chose to answer the "no" would then go on to fail to tick one of the boxes or write in a "gender". I'm confident the majority of the 118,000 "no specific gender" answers will be such protest ones, maybe almost all of them.

So the 262,000 will be something of an overestimate if being viewed as a count of "trans" people, unless there's a huge proportion of "trans" people who chose not to answer "no" to the first question.

Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 17:42

RichardBarrister · 18/01/2023 13:14

So pleased to see this discussion happening openly. We all need to question and probe - ourselves, professionals and schools acting with supposed confidence yet zero expertise in this complex area. The stranglehold of #nodebate is over.

Hear hear.

Just to expand on some facts about a misconception that a previous commenter had. The Tavistock was not the only NHS gender clinic in the country, there are actually 8.

There may be waiting lists for some but the person I know got a first appointment within a couple of months of having the initial wondering that she might be trans and then was on cross sex hormones a month later. This wasn’t very long ago.

Maybe it is a bit of a postcode lottery but let’s not assume that all gender distressed young people have to wait years for an appointment because they don’t.

There are also three new major clinics being built as I understand and apparently a hospital that will focus on trans surgery particularly phalloplasty which has an extremely high (something like 70/80%) complication and failure rate.

There is also the Gendergp, a private clinic (there are a number of other private clinics as well) that I think is still operating despite being owned by two GPs that were either struck off or long term suspended for giving puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to kids without proper assessment or monitoring.

Gender GP got caught at least once, if not more times for supplying a journalist who lied and said they were a 15 year old teenager with hormones?

12ft.io will unlock the tele articles.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/26/children-can-order-life-altering-transgender-drugs-bedroom/

"An undercover Telegraph reporter posing as a 15-year old girl was prescribed testosterone – the male hormone, which is a controlled drug – after just two Skype appointments with counsellors and one Skype appointment with a doctor at the online clinic."

"Staff never asked to speak to her parents nor demand proof that any adult knew of her plans to transition, beyond a single email from a 20-year-old half-brother confirming that he would pay for treatment."

Two days later this article also came out from another Telegraph journo.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/28/exclusive-online-clinic-willing-prescribe-sex-change-drugs-children/

"A GenderGP doctor told undercover reporters posing as the parents of a 12-year-old that their son may be able to obtain the drugs after only a few Skype appointments with a counsellor."

"Staff at the clinic admitted the puberty blockers could damage his bone density and there was too little clinical evidence to say whether they would affect his ability to have children."

"However, they played down the potential negative impact and told the reporters that the 12-year-old could potentially start on puberty blockers within six weeks and cross-sex hormones within seven and a half months of signing up to the clinic."

The question has been asked many times.

But, who benefits from creating division between parents and a vulnerable child or young person? Who exactly? It is important to look at exactly which groups benefit from this division.

realmsofglory · 18/01/2023 17:55

OP do you actually peronally know 3 socially 'trans' children -all f to m who are in DDs year at school, and the one thing tha pops out is how much happier they are living as boys. One had previously attempted suicide, another had eating disorders.It is very apparent they are much more comfortable in their own skin now. I eally don't understand why you think school should deny calling them by their name and pronouns of choice in school, a place where they should feel safe and validated. Furhermore why should the school betray the child's trust by telling the parents if the child does not want that? The school has a relationship with and duty of care to the child, not their parents

Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 17:55

"Did you realise that children are being coached online to say that they're suicidal? I can't find it now but there's a video of a doctor in America or Canada that literally tells kids to say they're suicidal to convince their parents to do what they want."

This was written about in a review done in Australia:

"Our study found that the children and families who came to the clinic had clear, preformed expectations: most often, children and families wanted a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to be provided or confirmed, together with referral to endocrinology services to pursue medical treatment of gender dysphoria. Parents (vs. children) also largely came with the same expectations"

The link and part of the conclusion are pasted below.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

Published April 22, 2021
Kasia Kozlowska, Georgia McClure et al

Australian children and adolescents with gender dysphoria: Clinical presentations and challenges experienced by a multidisciplinary team and gender service

Part of the conclusion

Our findings indicate that engagement with families, a trauma-informed model of mental health care, and ongoing discourse pertaining to the effects of unresolved trauma and loss need to be part of all gender dysphoria clinics and the services with which they collaborate. Because of their impact on subjective well-being and the development of the self, specific loss and trauma events present crucial opportunities for both long-term psychotherapy and more immediate, targeted treatments. The move to a more comprehensive, holistic model of care—one that takes into account the individual’s developmental history and the experiences that make up that history—has also been echoed in the work of other clinician-researchers (D’Angelo, 2020a; Entwistle, 2019; Giovanardi et al., 2018; Kozlowska et al., 2021; Williamson, 2019).

Our study found that the children and families who came to the clinic had clear, preformed expectations: most often, children and families wanted a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to be provided or confirmed, together with referral to endocrinology services to pursue medical treatment of gender dysphoria. Parents (vs. children) also largely came with the same expectations, though they were more likely to be interested in incorporating holistic (biopsychosocial) elements, including treatment of mental health comorbidities, family support/therapy, and long-term psychotherapy for the child. It was our impression that these expectations had been shaped by the dominant sociopolitical discourse—the gender affirmative model. It will be interesting to track the expectations of children and families in the years to come as sociopolitical discourses become more varied and diverse and as the voices are heard of both those who have done well and those who not done well via the medical pathway.

Our study also found that despite the high rates of family conflict, relationship breakdowns, parental mental illness, and maltreatment (see Table 3)—and our own clinical perspective that both individual and family work were indicated for the majority of families—few families rated themselves as being in a clinically severe range on self-report (SCORE-15). Coupled with the dominant sociopolitical discourse—the gender affirmative model that prioritizes the medical treatment pathway—it is not surprising that the large majority of children and families were not motivated to engage in or to remain engaged in ongoing therapy. These data bring three important phenomena into focus. First, when children and families were given the space and structure to tell the child’s developmental story—nested in the story of the family—they were able to identify and provide a detailed narrative of the key issues that had contributed to the child’s presentation and distress. Without this space and structure, the issues remain undeclared and unaddressed. Second, some families—but also some clinicians—function within a non-holistic (non-biopsychosocial) framework where the child’s developmental experiences are disconnected from their clinical presentation. This non-holistic framework is likely to promote a healthcare delivery model that dehumanizes the child (by not examining the child’s and family’s lived experience) and that promotes medical solutions (correcting the identity/body mismatch) for a problem that is much more complex. Third, as noted earlier, our experience suggests that, insofar as the gender affirmative model is taken as equivalent to medical intervention, clinicians (including ourselves) who work in gender services are coming under increasing pressure to put aside their own holistic (biopsychosocial) model of care, and to compromise their own ethical standards, by engaging in a tick-the-box treatment process. Such an approach does not adequately address a broad range of psychological, family, and social issues and puts patients at risk of adverse future outcomes and clinicians at risk of future legal action.

Here is another clinician from Australia with some things to say about the young female cohort and the degree to which these patience seem to be coming pre-prepared to get their desired treatment.

www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/now-i-m-hopeful-we-can-we-talk-about-teens-and-gender-20211031-p594q6.html

But from about 2014, I noticed an increase in natal female between 14 to 20 (so, past puberty), who reported experiencing gender dysphoria and expressed the desire to transition, often asking for support to begin cross-sex hormone therapy. While some described a long history of distress with their bodies, others had only come to the belief in recent months that they experienced gender dysphoria, after learning about it online. In some cases a parent attended a consultation and said this had taken them by surprise as there had been no indications that their child had any confusion about their gender identity.

often asking for support to begin cross-sex hormone therapy

Even so far back as 2014, young people were going to clinicians armed with the right things to ask or say to influence and progress treatment.

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/01/2023 17:59

realmsofglory · 18/01/2023 17:55

OP do you actually peronally know 3 socially 'trans' children -all f to m who are in DDs year at school, and the one thing tha pops out is how much happier they are living as boys. One had previously attempted suicide, another had eating disorders.It is very apparent they are much more comfortable in their own skin now. I eally don't understand why you think school should deny calling them by their name and pronouns of choice in school, a place where they should feel safe and validated. Furhermore why should the school betray the child's trust by telling the parents if the child does not want that? The school has a relationship with and duty of care to the child, not their parents

3 girls who think they are boys all in the same year?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is there something in the water where you live?

OP posts:
WandaWomblesaurus · 18/01/2023 18:03

What does "living as a boy" mean?

Trousers, short hair and being called by a boys name? Liking playing football with boys? Not being objectified by other boys?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 18:05

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/01/2023 17:59

3 girls who think they are boys all in the same year?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is there something in the water where you live?

We had more than 3 in one year.

Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 18:13

Has this interview been posted OP?

Maggie Chapman (Scottish Greens MSP on committee for the latest GRR bill in Scotland) thinks that children even at 6 should be supported to change their gender.

She also thinks that children should vote too.

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 18/01/2023 18:14

peronally know 3 socially 'trans' children -all f to m who are in DDs year at school,

Just by coincidence, all the 0.5% happen up in the same class?

One had previously attempted suicide, another had eating disorders.It is very apparent they are much more comfortable in their own skin now.

How long do you expect that to last? At what stage will a bit of social transition stop being enough, and what will they do then? Some may not need transition as a crutch any more. Let's hope! But for others this is a known phenomenon - unhappy kids make a gender change, feel better for a while, underlying problem not addressed, make another change, feel better for a while, underlying problem not addressed, make another change, feel better for a while, underlying problem not addressed.

And at some point they leave school and it's not the teachers' problem any more, and they're adults, and the world of drugs and surgery lies open before them. And they have not been given any other coping strategies except deepening their own dysphoria.

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 18/01/2023 18:24

peronally know 3 socially 'trans' children -all f to m who are in DDs year at school,

Still, at least their parents - I hope! - know what's going on and will be trying to get them the help they need, and the parents see social transition as helpful and not too dangerous.

The DM article was about parents who'd been professionally advised that it wasn't helpful but were overridden by the school. Or just not told.

StephanieSuperpowers · 18/01/2023 18:27

i And they have not been given any other coping strategies except deepening their own dysphoria.

And the belief that anyone who doesn't immediately affirm them hates them and wants them dead.

Helleofabore · 18/01/2023 18:31

The 5 out of 6 friends of my teen all had shockingly poor mental health even after transitioning.

My own teen had very poor mental health because the group made my teen incredibly anxious to remain part of. They called everyone transphobic and seemed to only discuss their mental health and transition. And their new friends on what I discovered were discord servers.

Even now the other four female trans people that are not part of this group are each incredibly vulnerable in their mental health. And this is again after socially transitioning with new pronouns and names.

I have yet to see conclusive studies that have absolutely no bias, by clinicians and are very robust to show that affirming only treatment paths are clear in their long term (not short term) improvement in mental health. It seems that Dr Cass didn’t find much conclusive evidence either.

Happy if anyone wants to post their findings here.

RichardBarrister · 18/01/2023 18:45

peronally know 3 socially 'trans' children -all f to m who are in DDs year at school,

Just by coincidence, all the 0.5% happen up in the same class?

There are reportedly schools in Brighton and other parts of the country that have (or had) up to 70 trans identifying students in one year group.