Gender recognition reform blocked

[hadntbeen]

Scottish Secretary Alister Jack has made an order under section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998, preventing the Scottish Parliament’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill from proceeding to Royal Assent.
Thank god 🙏🏻 I am an SNP supporter but this is one bill I was wholeheartedly against. I'm glad and relieved this decision was made.

The EA is mostly sufficient, but it needs clarification that the word 'sex' means biological sex. There is a petition on this - does someone have the link to post here?

The GRC is a mess, because my understanding is that it conflates sex and gender, and gives people the mistaken impression that they can change sex. It also allows changing of the sex on the birth certificate which should not be permissable.
No-one should get a certificate saying they are the opposite sex, because that is a lie and an impossibility. No-one should need a certificate saying they are of any particular gender, because it doesn't matter. You don't need a gender certificate to change your appearance or pay for surgery.

Single sex exemptions under the EA may be enough (or all that can reasonably be done in this arena) to protect women - but they have to be genuinely single-biological-sex, nothing to do with gender.

Good! The safety of women and girls should never be up for negotiation.

And Stonewall, Mermaids and the like need telling to stop giving false information to organisations about single-sex provisions and services.

Good.

i also think that NS knew what she was doing, doesn't give a shit about the collateral damage to anyone, in order to force indyref 2.

I didn't say that they don't have rights. I mean that in an equality for all kind of sense.

As I explained I think there should be proportional third space provision, there should be third categories in sports and honours. Keep women's spaces and competitions and honours for women. If trans people ain't happy using men's facilities or entering into competitions with born men then there should be provision that allows them to compete, in open categories, or in trans specific categories that doesn't fuck with anyone else.

The pretending to be what you're not comment was a shit joke about the inherent transphobia of being trans. I should have said chromosomal but it would still have been a shit joke

@RosaCaramella - that is not the point. The point jd that legally, the rest of the UK do not have any obligation to engage with this law.
There is no world where I want the SNP to legislate for me. Once independent Scotland may have these laws if it wishes. On a constitutional basis right now they may not.

The fact that the SNP have got delusional supporters on this does not mean the law is right. Scotland is full of excellent lawyers - I've worked with them, but this is just pigswill politics. If that is the best Scotland has to offer its people then they will need all the luck in the world when independent.

“If” not “when” please God 🙏 @LexMitior as a Scot I am embarrassed at the calibre of some of our politicians.

@IWineAndDontDine if you’ve sobered up maybe you could share a link

How? Section 35 is part of a law passed under the Labour Scottish Secretary Donald Dewar, and actually voted for by the SNP. Never been used before in all this time.

Some matters are devolved, some are not. It is fair enough that if the Scottish parliament has passed a law that strays beyond its remit that the UK government should block it. Otherwise everyone else in the UK is subject to laws passed by a Scottish parliament that only Scots get to vote for. How undemocratic is that? How wrong constitutionally is that?

Everyone and anyone has begged the SNP to think again about this including the EHRC. The UK government would be highly irresponsible to let this legislation through when there are constitutional problems with it. Letting this legislation through is the only thing that would be a 'dangerous precedent'.

This is all done thorough a UK parliament where Scots get to vote for their MPs same as the rest of us, and that Scots less than 10 years ago voted to remain part of. This is just democracy working not a "dangerous precedent" ffs.

You can always tell what Sturgeon is thinking because she levels the same arguments against Westminster. They are using this as a political football apparently, even though its clear this exactly the sort of bill she's desperate to push - purely because Westminster has to act, despite it being against the "will of the Scottish people" (but phrased differently as she knows full well its not true on this). It's actually despicable that she's using such a highly contentious/dangerous bill to push through her independence agenda at the expense of women and the trans community who are all just pawns in her fantasy.

Seriously? Are you that narrow minded you can't acknowledge there's plenty of transphobia on this site? Amongst some of the reasonable arguments for sure. But it's clearly there. If you are so caught up in your opinions you can't see when it goes to far then that's on you

Clear according to who?

Seriously? Are you that narrow minded you can't acknowledge there's plenty of transphobia on this site? Amongst some of the reasonable arguments for sure. But it's clearly there. If you are so caught up in your opinions you can't see when it goes to far then that's on you

Post the examples of transphobia. Since there's plenty...

EGS, you have misunderstood Fojn.

She's not saying that trans people are nefarious, she's saying that this well-meaning but badly-thought-out rule would have been open to exploitation by non-trans nefarious bastards

Thanks Cronky but this willful misrepresentation of the points made is fairly common. I've witnessed an MP in the HoP do exactly the same thing today.

Some clever bugger has crunched the numbers from the UK census with prison stats from the MOJ and found that:

1 in 585 males who identify as transwomen are convicted sex offenders
vs
1 in 2500-3000 men who are convicted sex offenders

If transwomen aren't more likely to be sex offenders then how do we explain this? Most people I've discussed it with think that self ID presents an attractive loophole for sexual predators who would like to serve their prison time in the female prison estate. I can't see how allowing this is helpful to transpeople in anyway.

You have to wonder why someone would try to shut down this conversation when it's so obvious self ID is open to abuse and is already being exploited even though it is not UK law. Are these people who are well aware of the risks but are determined not to be deprived of that loophole to use for themselves?

If transwomen aren't more likely to be sex offenders then how do we explain this? Most people I've discussed it with think that self ID presents an attractive loophole for sexual predators who would like to serve their prison time in the female prison estate. I can't see how allowing this is helpful to transpeople in anyway.

that is the same point though. they "identify as transwomen" because that makes it seem as though being trans is the issue. But they aren't and it isn't. They aren't transwomen, they are sexual predators using current thinking/legieslation to get access to vulnerable targets (women).

I don't believe they are genuinely trans, they are sexual predators. But, of course, there is no way of knowing since we must "affirm"

Good

The facts regarding the legality and democracy of the UK Government blocking this particular Holyrood legislation.

We’d also need some way to measure if someone is ‘genuine trans’, but the trans umbrella is so wide that is impossible.

It seems most people who call us transphobes think there is a genuine trans, and that in that state it is impossible to be a sex offender. When the trans umbrella includes people who cross-dress for erotic purposes (i.e. fetish) it is extraordinarily unlikely that you won’t get a sex offender in there.

Regardless of whether you think this bill should or should not go ahead. It is totally outrageous that the English government have overruled the Scottish parliament.

Ever strengthening the need for independence

agree, it is a big hot mess that really only benefits the people taking advantage of legislation/modern thinking for nefarious purposes.

But the trans lobby (MRA lobby) have made it so that if you question or comment on one small thing done by one of these folk - you're instantly a terf and perpetrating trans genocide (sigh)

I don't know the answer outside of all forms for recording anything must have space for: biological sex (sex observed at birth) and also Gender.

Regardless of whether you think this bill should or should not go ahead. It is totally outrageous that the English government have overruled the Scottish parliament.

no it isn't. It was an obvious decision based on the fact that this legislation will affect England and Wales too.

In Scotland people rightly rail against legislation made in Westminster that covers things in Scotland, and have taken steps (devolved government) to avoid that. England and Wales deserve and must have the same courtesy.

We’d also need some way to measure if someone is ‘genuine trans’, but the trans umbrella is so wide that is impossible.

This is the problem with self ID, there is no way to check if someone is "genuine trans" if the only verification required is their say so. Under self ID if you say you are trans, you are.

It also renders the penalties for making a false declaration utterly meaningless. How can you prove someone made a false declaration if the law hasn't defined what "living in your acquired gender" means and all you had to do to obtain a GRC was to say, "I'm trans".

@RosaCaramella

"I’ve seen the devastation of mental health in trans people, young people in particular, due to not being accepted by society."

It's not on the rest of us to affirm someone's identity issues. If a person's mental health is affected by society's perception of them then they need psychological help.

I think the fact that it's taken 25 years for Westminster to veto a Scottish law shows that the system works well. The point of the veto is to prevent the Scottish parliament passing laws over things that are reserved for Westminster and it never having been used until now shows it's unusual for it to be an issue.

That said I'm certain the SNP are currently working out other legislation they can pass that the UK government will also veto because they can use this as a weapon.

FWIW I was pleased Scotland voted to remain in 2014 but it's clear now that it's just a matter of time so they might as well just go independent and be done with it. It'll be interesting/funny seeing them struggle once their UK funds are cut off and how they pay their "divorce bill" to the rest of the UK. Ideally I'd like to see the funds used to build a fucking massive wall along the border and a big army presence to prevent border crossings after independence a bit like they have in Korea.