Gender recognition reform blocked

[hadntbeen]

Scottish Secretary Alister Jack has made an order under section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998, preventing the Scottish Parliament’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill from proceeding to Royal Assent.
Thank god 🙏🏻 I am an SNP supporter but this is one bill I was wholeheartedly against. I'm glad and relieved this decision was made.

Quite. There’s co-morbidity with ASD and anorexia for example - and anorexia has the highest suicide rate for all mental illness.

It would be fine if it was about Transwomen people being more easily recognised/protected AS TRANSWOMEN - but it's not, it's about transwomen (men) being recognised as women.

Northern Ireland operates under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, implementing the Belfast Agreement. Discrimination and equality are devolved ('transferred') matters, not reserved to the UK government as they are in Great Britain. NI is responsible for its own legislation on equality and has its own separate Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (ECNI). The EHRC is GB only. The Equality Act is mostly a GB Act.

Thank you to all the posters with info about suicide statistics, confirms what I was thinking - that there are a lot of groups at risk of suicide e.g. care leavers, the elderly, disabled, people with chronic pain, people with ASD, eating disorders, as well as people who are trans or have gender dysphoria.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that getting a GRC reduces suicide risk. I have seen stats that surgical and hormonal transition doesn't reduce suicide risk.

And there does seem to be a crossover between trans and some personality disorders, which also have increased suicide risk (e.g. emotionally unstable personality disorder, previously known as borderline PD)

I fully support equal rights for trans people. They should have proportional provision, they should have sporting category provided, they should not fear discrimination and have legal protections, just like everyone else. Trans should be a proud status, not something people are so ashamed to be that they have to pretend to be of a different genetic makeup

Yes, advocating for womens safety is 'hating trans people'. Wow. You really are brainwashed.

@GreenEmeraldSea See, this just proves you don't get it. It's about MEN. Not 'trans people'.

The GRR Bill would change the operation of a UK law. Last time I checked, I didn't get to vote for a Scottish MSP - what with not living there. They have no right to mess with a reserved issue. Equality is a reserved issue.
Regardless of what I think about GRR Bill, it affects Uk law.
So the government was right to refuse to put it forward for consent

@OneTC Do tell what rights trans people don't have. And, while you are at it, tell us more about this different genetic makeup

@RosaCaramella Then you clearly haven't thought it through. There is no toll on trans people. Evidence shows they are the safest and most privileged group there is. WOMEN are the most vulnerable group.

You talk about policeMEN, but forget that trans women are..... MEN. 97% of trans women retain their penis and testicles. So, you are advocating, for MEN, these MEN, to enter womens spaces.

Where is your empathy and compassion for WOMEN???

Btw, you might like to become informed: www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/
thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

Does the Carrick care mean all policemen are rapists? No. Does the Katie Dolatowski case mean all transwomen are paedophiles? No. Both cases show you need fully operational safeguarding. Because predators like Carrick and Dolatowski will exploit your good will in order to abuse. Remove the safeguards or lower the safeguarding standards (which the GRR Bill does) and you create opportunities for predators.
How is this difficult?

The old 'they already do it anyway' trope. Same as 'well they'll take heroine anyway, take crystal meth anyway, murder anyway, so lets decriminalise heroin, meth, murder. In fact lets have no laws.' This, breaks down the social construct and contract that shamed men into staying out of our spaces. This breaks that taboo, and enables it. It gives public acceptance to something that was taboo.

@AthenaPopodopolous What about the trauma to women? Of having a person with a penis and testicles (which is what self-ID allows) in our spaces? What about WOMENS TRAUMA? Why don't we matter?

The gay analogy is a weak and offensive strawman. Gay people weren't seeking to take any rights away from women. Gay men still use mens facilities. Lesbian women still use womens facilities. They weren't advocating for taking rights away from a group.

I was trying to show a comparison that trans and gay people were formerly criminalised or thought of as having a medical disorder in history. This new bill seeks to do away with non binary people having to get a mental health diagnosis, i,e gender dysphoria.
my point is that is helpful, it’s just their identity and why should they be labelled mentally ill?

Is there evidence of any trans people amongst them causing harm to women and children either in rUK or in their own countries? Is there evidence of people pretending to be trans and using the legislation to harm women and children in countries which already have gender self-id?

Yes, there is. Evidence shows trans women offend at a HIGHER RATE than natal males:
fairplayforwomen.com/criminality/
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg
committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

As to the lies about suicide; trans people have less suicides but perform more offences than natal men. They retain Male Privilege and are the most protected and privileged group in society:
www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/
thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/

If trans women are at risk, that is MENS problem to solve. Not womens. Women are not HUMAN SHIELDS for trans women.

it’s just their identity and why should they be labelled mentally ill?

I'm all for people wearing what they want and living as they wish without a label of mental illness, certainly.
I draw the line when this includes seeking entry into single sex spaces belonging to the opposite sex.

If you're so distressed by your body thst you require surgeries on healthy body parts, cross-sex hormones and binders, or cannot cope with "misgendering"or anything other than total affirmation then yes you are mentally ill.

I'm so pleased to hear this.

Do we validate an anorexic girl's opinion that she is fat?

No. So why do we validate a mans belief that he's a woman?

And on the suicide note, any psychologist will tell you not to rise to the 'they will commit suicide' or 'I'll kill myself if you leave me' threat by men. It's emotional manipulation, and it's abusive and it shouldn't be something given in to.

Women are not human shields because a male in a dress will kill himself if he can't access womens change rooms.

Why should your self proclaimed identity give you additional rights others of your class don't have?

And the 'trans is like gay' falls flat: gay people wanted the same rights as others, trans people want priviliges other people don't have.

I totally get the comparison and point you are trying to make - that what is considered a 'mental illness' changes over time. A century ago women were often considered to be mentally ill if they didn't conform to social expectations.

Perhaps 'being trans' is not a mental illness, just as 'being gay' is not. If an individual believes it is possible for them to change sex, perhaps they are just misinformed and ignorant, not mentally ill.

However, if we do away with the mental illness test, and the long wait, and the 'living as a woman' requirement, if we remove the barriers for the sake of compassion, and say that any trans person can get a GRC with ease - then what happens to women's safeguards? What will stop predatory and abusive men abusing the current GRC facility to enter women's spaces with impunity?

What needs to happen is that the fiction that changing gender = changing sex should be abolished.

I am not bothered about the 'identity' of any non-binary or trans person. I would be happy for anyone to be able to get a 'gender' certificate on demand, proclaiming themselves to be whatever - as long as the whole of society, and the individuals concerned, recognises that this did not change their biological sex. The sex on the birth certificate should not be changed. All relevant official documents for adults could included boxes for 'gender' (as well as sex where essential and relevant) - would that help?

But no-one can change sex. And sex matters. Especially to women.

Yeah Beancounter I understand. I think the existing Equalities Law and gender recognition law are already sufficient to safeguard women. Had a quick read last night but I don’t agree with the Scots gov reducing the age to 16 by I do agree with removing the need for a medical diagnosis.

Id like to hear more from non binary people though on their thoughts of any are on here.

I’m no fan of the tories but my god thank heavens there’s some adults at the table who can stop this utter madness.

Sturgeon and cronies are throwing women and children under the bus and for what exactly?

I have to agree, think they’re trying to stoke an anti English rhetoric so she can try and push independence through.

Except the existing Equalities Law and gender recognition law clearly don't protect or safeguard women. The evidence of that is more than abundant.

as i understand it the EA2010 is what is in force and what applies legally. But, some organisations are jumping the gun and taking what is in the Scottish GRC bill as "best practice"?

So if, say, a man (looks like a man in jeans, t-shirt, beard, deep voice) goes into a ladies toilet and someone says "sorry, mate, the men's is over there" what should happen is "oh sorry" and off they go.

But what might happen is "I'm a woman, you can't say that to me transphobe transphobe help help" and some well meaning member of the public hauls in plod who either has words with or arrests the woman who pointed out the mistake. Under EA2010 simply saying "i am a trans woman" doesn't make you a woman under the law. You are still a man, but you are also a trans woman.

if I'm understanding the possible scenarios correctly, most people you ask "do you support TW using women's facilities" think it's someone who looks more like Edna Everage or Debbie Hayton, rather than some bloke who just walked in off a building site.

I think you are right. It is the Northern Ireland Act 1998 plus regulations on various strands of discrimination, reflecting NI, UK/ GB and EU anti-discrimination law. Historically, NI law was separate long before devolution, constituted and operating under the Government of Ireland Act 1920 with its own parliament and judicial system. That was repealed by the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which set out NI's status and arrangements for government based on the Belfast Agreement. In that context, it isn't odd that it has its own tailored arrangements reflecting its special circumstances but perhaps one could call it an oddity within the UK.