Gender recognition reform blocked

[hadntbeen]

Scottish Secretary Alister Jack has made an order under section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998, preventing the Scottish Parliament’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill from proceeding to Royal Assent.
Thank god 🙏🏻 I am an SNP supporter but this is one bill I was wholeheartedly against. I'm glad and relieved this decision was made.

How many people who express an opinion (judgement) on this actually know any trans people?

I do! Just a few quite well. Some for many years, others younger and very dear to me. And these days you'd be bound at least to encounter some trans people if you have anything to do with young people e.g. for your work.

The legislation was brought about to lessen the terrible toll that trying to be accepted for who they are takes on trans people

Yes I am sure it that was the intention. With an innocence that would be charming if it wasn't so dangerous. And then it became policy and a commitment and so it became necessary to stick fingers in ears and say "La La La" when anyone else tried to point out that there were serious downsides.

especially young people who are one of the highest groups to take their own lives.

Young people, perhaps, not especially due to being trans though. That's misinformation.

it wasn’t discussed widely in the press or on social media as far as I am aware

Well no it wasn't, so naive views like yours were not corrected by widespread public discussion or by reliable information.

so I would also question the assertions that the Scottish public didn’t want the bill.

That's hard to say. The bill is pig in a poke, the public don't know all the effects it will have, no-one really knows for sure. The Scottish government has said contradictory things about what legal effects it will have, so we don't know.

I wish the Scottish Govt had listened to women's advocates, and also taken more seriously the evidence about physical and psychological dangers to children and young people instead of using the "just like Section 28" trope. But the Scottish govt didn't take it seriously. Calling on the UK govt to stop it feels like stopping a bully by calling on a bigger bully!

Rubbish.

The UK is a UNITARY SOVEREIGN STATE and Westminster has always been the Supreme Legislator.

Holyrood, Stormont and Cardiff Bay are NOT equal to Westminster as they're very much constrained in power.

Westminster is not constrained in Domestic Constitutional Law.

It's all in the Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales Acts. All above board and very democratic.

You might have a point if the UK was a FEDERATION like the USA, but we're not. We still have central government with very limited powers decentralised.

Unlike Holyrood vis a vis the independence stuff, Westminster is NOT acting outwith it's powers.

People in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all voted for very limited local government with ultimate power residing in a central Westminster Parliament. It's democratic.

How many people who express an opinion (judgement) on this actually know any trans people?

that's not actually the 'gotcha' you think it is, btw. So few people know anyone who is trans because they are really a tiny minority.

A minority who deserve to be treated with sympathy and compassion and understanding. But not a minority who get to ride roughshod over other groups.

Where rights of various groups stand in conflict, a 3rd way is required. which is off topic for this discussion so I'll leave it there.

@clutchingatpearls I have serious doubts about Maggie Chapman's ability to make any connections between anything ever. She's absolutely off her head and needs to be well away from where adult decisions are being made.

I think this is the first time every since devolution and many many pieces of Scottish only legislation have gone through unopposed. This affects all of the UK therefore it is unacceptable under wider laws.

Nicola will milk it though. Maybe that was why it was pushed through despite so much opposition

How many people who express an opinion (judgement) on this actually know any trans people?

I'm anti this legislation and have a dear friend (male to female) who has transitioned and is a happy lovely person. Now married to a woman. I don't understand how it works but I don't judge. She wouldn't consider entering women only spaces.

I think both sides have been spoiling for this fight. The SNP refused to entertain amendments that would have improved compatibility with the Equalities Act and the Tories refused the option of sending this to the courts. It really has very little to do with the actual content of the bill (beyond it being in a grey area between reserved and devolved powers).

Rubbish. I don't even know why you are posting this. The Scots parliament passed the Bills in March 2021 and as I said the Johnson government referred them to the Supreme Court.

Seconded! It is clear that Maggie Chapman is unable to connect any dots UNLESS it is to do with pushing her career and then she is well in front.

Scotland should think about Twat Self Recognition Certificates and begin by giving them to Chapman and Sturgeon. I

Although I think they both know that they are twats and don't care but a certificate would make it nice and legal for them. Then, whenever they open their mouths, they could brandish their TSRC in case anyone was in any doubt.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

especially young people who are one of the highest groups to take their own lives.

“Young people, perhaps, not especially due to being trans though. That's misinformation.”

Do not accuse me of spreading misinformation. Here are a tiny selection of examples of worldwide research on this topic. I would be interested to see your sources which refute this research.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/23299/pdf/

academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/advance-article/doi/10.1093/pubmed/fdab383/6444311

www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

@RosaCaramella

The legislation was for people living in Scotland so has nothing to do with the UK.

INCORRECT.

Yeah, this is just wrong. If a person has a particular view about the constitutional issues that's fair enough, but actually find out what they are first.

As a Scottish person living in Scotland with no intention of moving to England or Wales or Northern Ireland, this is my perspective on a piece of legislation brought about by the Scottish government which would have applied in Scotland only.

You do realise that people from other countries with different laws about many aspects of life and behaviour including gender identity self-Id visit England, Wales and Northern Ireland already? Is there evidence of any trans people amongst them causing harm to women and children either in rUK or in their own countries? Is there evidence of people pretending to be trans and using the legislation to harm women and children in countries which already have gender self-id? It is well known that the equality act of 2010 already includes provision for transgender people vis-a-vis the use of single sex changing rooms, toilets and prisons. The proposed GRR would not change that.

I don’t often post on controversial issues but as stated earlier, I’ve seen the devastation of mental health in trans people, young people in particular, due to not being accepted by society. For me, this legislation was about easing their burden. Many here seem to think my outlook naive but I have nothing but compassion for people who struggle with life and there doesn’t appear to be solid evidence backing people’s worst fears about this legislation.

I accept we all have our own views on this.

@RosaCaramella Your links are all about the risks of trans YP taking their own lives. It is not in dispute that this group of people are at high risk.

The questions is: are trans YP "one of the highest groups to take their own lives"? as you assert. To evidence this you would need links to suicide risk statistics for ALL groups of people, including e.g. young straight men, pensioners in chronic pain, etc. etc. Then we could see how trans YP compare to other groups and whether they are "one of the highest groups".

You need clearer thinking and better logic.

@RosaCaramella
"Is there evidence of people pretending to be trans and using the legislation to harm women and children in countries which already have gender self-id?"

Have a look at the 'It will never happen' thread.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

I don’t often post on controversial issues but as stated earlier, I’ve seen the devastation of mental health in trans people, young people in particular, due to not being accepted by society.

and the devastation and mental health issues caused to female victims of opportunist men who take advantage of this badly thought out legislation? don't matter right, especially if they are now self-excluding from therapy etc because they don't feature in the statistics.

Getting a GRC in 3 months does ZIP to help a currently frantic trans teen. What would help them is good therapy.

The evidence is there for people who care to see. I will not be drawn into making personal comments to individuals
who have a different view from me.

For the record there have been people on this thread disputing that trans youngsters are at high risk of self harm and suicide hence my reply with links.

I’m not interested in point scoring. Good day to you.

but the evidence isn't - all people are asking for are good reliable statistics.

You seem concerned about trans teens, and that is good. Someone needs to be concerned about them beyond just "living your best life, have a mastectomy" affirmation, but serious good therapy and support in their transition.

But you have zero compassion for anyone else. There are many many more women who are going to be affected by this than the trans teens. Because there are many more women to start with. So have some compassion for all and don't blindly follow a badly thought out, bill. Do some critical and logical thinking

For the record there have been people on this thread disputing that trans youngsters are at high risk of self harm and suicide hence my reply with links.

to be fair they aren't. They are contesting your claim that they are the AT MOST risk.

To evidence this you would need links to suicide risk statistics for ALL groups of people, including e.g. young straight men, pensioners in chronic pain, etc. etc.

... girls suffering from anorexia, ASD children, those suffering from depression, survivors of child sexual abuse, bullying etc etc

Nor am I interested in point-scoring. The issues are far, far too serious for that.

Matters of legislation and public policy are always best decided with lots of logic and clear thinking, unclouded by emotion.

This.

It’s worth noting that trans are suicide risk post transition as well as pre.

I think there are lots of groups who are at high risk for suicide, and as pp mentioned some of them (a lot?) are post OP trans people.

So the position shouldn't be "who can i deprive of help to serve these people?" but "how can we best use our resources to help as many as possible?" Every life is as valid as another, IMO.

So what we need is more therapy places, more therapists and overall more help. And in the meantime? we have to triage and some people miss out. It is a tragic fact of our current situation.

Thanks @Beancounter1

@RosaCaramella I did not mean to accuse you of spreading misinformation; I meant only that you had been misinformed if you thought that there was some super-high risk of suicide for trans young people.

Nowadays many trans young people belong to multiple high risk groups, also having other mental health issues which are not simply the effect of being trans. So these studies need to be taken carefully and not over interpreted to mean there is something unusually dangerous about being trans that overwhelms all other considerations. There isn't.