To not feel safe in changing rooms anymore?

[WandaWomblesaurus]

nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/

Another story about an inappropriate man in a woman's changing room - is this what we are going to see more of in the UK now too? Having been both flashed and sexually assaulted in a public place, this chills me to the bone. Men who get a thrill out of exposing themselves to women will use any opportunity to do so. To think that they won't abuse women's spaces is to be wilfully and dangerously naive.

YANBU - Not unreasonable to think that flashing is flashing regardless of self ID and magical feelings.

YABU - Be kind to men etc etc

Ok, if I have to rewrite it... transwomen feeling fearful of biological and self-identifying men.

Did I really have to do that?! I think it's pretty understandable why a transwoman might be fearful of other men (if you want me to put it like that) who view their feelings, opinions, choices as wrong, immoral, disgusting etc.

I’ve never understood what this actually means. What even is a woman in the context that trans women are women? If what makes you a woman isn’t your sex what is it. It feels like whenever I read any explanation of it it has all these references to stupid stereotypes of the sort I’d hope we would be moving away from by now (I always knew I was a woman because I loved barbies and wanted to be nurturing and felt more comfortable in a dress etc as if any of that should be of any importance)

But sometimes, you are the only one in the women's changing rooms. How much more vulnerable is that teenaged girl then?

You're moving the boundaries here. You can't tell me what risk they post and literally said "its not always about physical", yet we hear on these forums day in day out about how "hurt feelings" when it comes to trans issues are not a problem. You say male pattern behaviour then tell me there is no physical risk.

I asked earlier upthread the statistics for women being assaulted in a changing room and that doesn't seem to have appeared.

I don't think any woman should have her dignity compromised, I havent said otherwise. But the argument seems to have no foundation and moves the goalposts all the time.

Re your last point, I can't agree. There are innocent men in the world, they do exist.

I prioritise the safety of women and girls over men's fantasies. No competition whatsoever.

I support anyone's right to live as they wish, express themselves, engage with whatever gender identity they wish. It's nothing to do with me.

However transGENDER people deciding they have a right to single SEX spaces is a clear and blatant overstep and not something that any rational argument can support.

I can't really see why being made to use men only facilities would have any effect on men's mental health.

It's also pretty clear that when pp said they didn't care about men's feelings they meant in the context of being allowed to use women's changing rooms. Not that they don't care about men in general.

Yes, and then indeed of women who "don't give a fuck" about them. And people think women are the group most vulnerable.

Why would any man have to do any of that in order to claim to be trans?

Do you refuse to accept transgender identities if people haven't had surgery or hormonal treatment yet?

I’m sorry but this is just rude. Just because someone doesn’t want to shower naked (which for me would involve washing my vagina and bumhole) in front of total strangers doesn’t make them a prude. I wouldn’t shower naked at a gym or spa unless the showers are private cubicles. If they’re public I just do a quick rinse with swimsuit on and shower properly at home.

I didn't say they would. I mean tit's possible to care about more than one thing at once, and equally.

I wouldn't count on it.

Most trans women don't transition. 92% to 97% (depending on which medical and government data you use) retain their penis and testicles. That, is a reality. And even for the 3% that do transition, it does not justify them being in womens spaces. If you think government data about trans women committing sexual offences at a HIGHER RATE than other males is about 'hate', that's sad. Why is reporting on attacks against women 'inciting hate'? You can't be serious! By attempting to silence this, you are actually inciting hate against women who have been raped and attacked in these articles.

Re your last point, I can't agree. There are innocent men in the world, they do exist.

Innocent men aren't in women's changing rooms. Innocent men have empathy and don't want to cause women anxiety.

Caling it a "fantasy" is not supporting their right to live as they wish and express themselves. Back to the "biological reality". Exactly my point. Express yourself about the single spaces without being insulting. But I know exactly this age old circle - I will now be accused of expecting women to "be kind", which leads into the TRA and MRa insults when in fact its none of the above. In any other discussion it is a life skill to be able to discuss an issue without dragging in statements which just because htey aren't offensive to you doesn't mean they aren't to other people. We wouldn't do it about any other demographic but it appears when it comes to men and trans just being reasonably civil and kind and respecting people's beliefs goes out the window.

But women, as proved above, have zero empathy for men or trans, it appears.

Haha. Are you wearing blinkers? It really isn't. You might be watching the right social media channels. But in the real world it's not changing at all.

Caling it a "fantasy" is not supporting their right to live as they wish and express themselves.

It's exactly the same as being an atheist and believing god to be a fantasy, while supporting the rights of religious people to practice their own faith.

That i can accept.

I really dislike the misogynist dismissive attitude of those describing women with different ideas around modesty and privacy as ‘prudes’ or engaging in ‘hysteria’.

You know how those words started to fit this situation in your mind don’t you? Because you swallowed the patriarchy-approved misogyny that was shoveled down your throat. It’s not because those words actually fit the situation.

In case you didn't realise, 'cis' is a sexist slur. It's not about 'time's changing', it's about you buying into misogynist and offensive tropes.

yes, but every religious discussion isn't interspersed with "BUT THATS NOT POSSIBLE" so why in this discussion?

We get it, you don't agree that they are trans Why the incapability of discussing single sex spaces without hammering that point home? That's the offensive part, yet that's the part that still carries on.

Innocent men aren't in women's changing rooms. Innocent men have empathy and don't want to cause women anxiety.

Exactly this. Males who ignore or deliberately disrespect women's boundaries are a red flag.

Calling it a "fantasy" is not supporting their right to live as they wish and express themselves.

Thinking they can change sex and/or have a right to single sex spaces IS a fantasy. Don't like that, take it up with Mother Nature. I didn't make the rules.

But I believe in speaking the truth. Lying to people about issues of this magnitude isn't kind to anyone and has caused immense problems for women's rights.

👏

My opinion is that things like being watched changing under a cubicle door or being flashed are extremely harmful even though they aren't physical assault.
Hurt feelings is more like when someone jumps the queue or won't lend you their shampoo.