Page 28 | To not feel safe in changing rooms anymore?

WandaWomblesaurus · 2023-01-15T08:34:59+00:00

https://nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/ Another story about an inappropriate man in a woman's changing room - is this what we are going to see more of in the UK now too? Having been both flashed and sexually assaulted in a public place, this chills me to the bone. Men who get a thrill out of exposing themselves to women will use any opportunity to do so. To think that they won't abuse women's spaces is to be wilfully and dangerously naive. YANBU - Not unreasonable to think that flashing is flashing regardless of self ID and magical feelings. YABU - Be kind to men etc etc

OneTC · 15/01/2023 19:40

GreensAreGoodForYou · 15/01/2023 19:38

I thought it was about safety. Transwomen feeling unsafe from men. (Of course, there's also the wanting to live life as a woman aspect, but I genuinely believe safety is an issue - trans women and trans women are attacked, and, as with biological women, the attackers are mostly men. We're all basically worried about men... at least that's how it seems to me.)

Except for some in dresses

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:40

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 15/01/2023 19:33

That's what you yourself need to consider about yourself. Being childish, rude, belligerent, and without empathy for women doesn't make your already untenable position any stronger.

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I have empathy for women. I just have equal empathy for trans people, and indeed for men. Equal. Not more, not less.
Equal.

Emotionalsupportviper · 15/01/2023 19:41

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 15/01/2023 19:07

No, what women want is not 'reversing the roles' at all. What we want, is the STATUS QUO (at least until recently) where all male bodies are kept out of womens spaces. Just what is it that you cannot understand about that?

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Indeed.

Single sex spaces were instituted for a reason - and women and children are not there to be experimented upon, to see whether things get better or worse.

Their safety is paramount.

Why is it that when TW claim to feel "vulnerable" and "unsafe" in male spaces, everyone seems to jump to accommodate them (even though the statistics show that in the UK at least, they are the safest demographic), while when women express the same feelings of vulnerability and lack of safety, and also concerns about their children, they are dismissed as hysterical, even though the statistics bear out their fears?

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 15/01/2023 19:41

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:39

I said your posting was childish because it is.

I didnt say anything nearly as damning as you.

Throwing gas lighting around doesnt make your points any stronger. You have attacked me from the off.

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Your posting is what is childish. You are now practicing the well-known artform of DARVO and gaslighting. in an attempt to cast yourself as victim in order to shut down discussion. You have said some deeply, deeply offensive things. Right from the start. I haven't said anything anywhere near as bad as you. And you know it, and so do the rest of us.

Mummyoflittledragon · 15/01/2023 19:43

Burgoo · 15/01/2023 15:15

For transparency I am a guy, though no mention was made as to whether men could comment…
There are points for and against you being unreasonable…

What does the data show? Not what you have experienced or what friends have. But the actual number of times this happens in a year? You can only really judge whether an emotion is reasonable based on how realistic the threat is. If it is 1% that is one thing, if it is 80% that is another.

Feelings do not mean facts. I can “feel” threatened but it does not mean I AM threatened. Again. it all comes down to how realistic the fear is. There is a huge issue with confirmation bias in all areas of life. We think we are at risk and therefore any (even remote) suggestion that we are at risk is expanded in our heads.

Would it be reasonable to be fearful of people based on race, ethnicity, sexuality etc? Is there a free pass for fearing all men?

That said, it makes sense why if you have had an experience that you may be fearful. If I were attacked by someone of a specific background, then I may be wary of that group in the future. Ironically, I was attacked by a person of another race once. If I were to say “I am fearful of X type of person” I would be called racist. But it does seem okay to say “I am fearful that men will attack me”. Its rather curious and shows a complete blind spot.

It is also interesting how we think that men will just randomly attack in changing rooms. If they are going to do it they will do it in areas where there are much less cameras (not in the actual rooms but in the shop just outside the changing rooms) like parks, streets etc. Men, as a rule, don’t need to say “I am a woman” to attack women. It is a red herring really.

As a man I don’t believe most men get “turned on” by woman getting changed. It isn’t exactly something people fantasise about from my experience. I’ve got many male friends who can’t even imagine spying on women in changing rooms, they are often there to shock horror get changed! I’ve also got many female friends, none of which report that they have ever had this experience.
In short, it may be reasonable if you have experienced something unpleasant AND it is easy to generalise and see risk everywhere. And I say this a male who was sexually assaulted by a male in a bar.

It is far from ‘curious’ that women are afraid of being attacked, raped or murdered by men. I find it baffling that a man cannot work out the difference between being fearful of people because of their sexuality, race or religion and being fearful of men. The former can be either male or female whereas the latter is exclusively male and thanks to male puberty is stronger, faster, taller and more aggressive whilst having a built in appendage capable of rape. We cannot tell simply by looking at a man whether he is a danger or not, therefore the only sensible course of action is to exclude males from all areas, where women are at their most vulnerable. We are not the ones with a ‘complete blind spot’. Only a man (and very few women) think like this. Men think nothing of walking around in the dark late at night and there are so many things women cannot do. I can drive through my safe village early evening in the dark this time of year and guarantee the only people I see walking will be male because women don’t consider themselves safe.

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:46

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 15/01/2023 19:41

Your posting is what is childish. You are now practicing the well-known artform of DARVO and gaslighting. in an attempt to cast yourself as victim in order to shut down discussion. You have said some deeply, deeply offensive things. Right from the start. I haven't said anything anywhere near as bad as you. And you know it, and so do the rest of us.

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I dont want a discussion shut down. I just dont agree with you, and despite your beliefs, that is allowed.

'And you know it' is gas lighting. I'm not a victim, you're just implying a pack mentality with your 'the rest of us'.

I am entitled to my opinions as anyone else. It is you who has managed to derail, not I.

Interestingly, i did actually say i agree with single spaces. You might have missed that with your caps lock
I just dont believe the argument is clear cut.

SnackSizeRaisin · 15/01/2023 19:46

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:28

Then we agee

But I do disagree about mass outcry resulting in transphobia over a teenage girl seeing a man in her changing room.

I dont believe teaching young women to be terrified of men is right, and I'm not convinced it helps. A great example upthresd where a man walked into the wrong changing room. For all we know he could have been someones husband, dad, grandad , whatever, taking someone another outfit which is common practice. But no he must be a rapist.

We need to keep women safe absolutely byt we are doing ourselves no favours painting ourselves as little princesses who are terrified at the thought of seeing a man. How on earth can we expect women to accurately assess danger if we behave like that?

Ian Huntley was used as am example earlier on. As with many of his ilk, his victims were attracted by a woman.

In all seriousness, ar what risk is a teenage girl in a changing room full of.womem to a lone passing man? genuinely?

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Men often attack their victims in crowded places. It isn't just rape, it's indecent assault and exposure as well as voyeurism.

Women do need to learn that every man could be a threat, and the way to manage that risk. A man entering a female only area is a potential risk that will be noticed. It's socially unacceptable behaviour that acts as a warning. We don't want to wait until he actually starts raping someone before becoming alert.

Think of it like burglars. We could choose to believe everyone is lovely and invite every person who passes into the house and trust them until one runs off with the telly. Or we can take certain basic precautions such as locking the door and only inviting people in if we know who they are, and then not worry any more about it.

RinklyRomaine · 15/01/2023 19:48

Equal empathy is not a bad thing but where's the critical thought? How are you finding a balance between the need of safety and fear reduction for women and the need for men who identify with feminine stereotypes for validation? It isn't about those men's safety; in this country they are basically the safest demographic. Surely you can see one of those needs absolutely does outweighs the other?

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:49

Mummyoflittledragon · 15/01/2023 19:43

It is far from ‘curious’ that women are afraid of being attacked, raped or murdered by men. I find it baffling that a man cannot work out the difference between being fearful of people because of their sexuality, race or religion and being fearful of men. The former can be either male or female whereas the latter is exclusively male and thanks to male puberty is stronger, faster, taller and more aggressive whilst having a built in appendage capable of rape. We cannot tell simply by looking at a man whether he is a danger or not, therefore the only sensible course of action is to exclude males from all areas, where women are at their most vulnerable. We are not the ones with a ‘complete blind spot’. Only a man (and very few women) think like this. Men think nothing of walking around in the dark late at night and there are so many things women cannot do. I can drive through my safe village early evening in the dark this time of year and guarantee the only people I see walking will be male because women don’t consider themselves safe.

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I did actually find your post quite interesting.

But I think thats the point. Islamophobia,.for example, originates from an fear that a particular group of society could , and have, harmed us. Of course, that is a prejudice people would not publicly state on a forum and say well fuck how they feel, I dont care. They just wouldnt.

But irs okay to do it about men and trans.

That is my only point. Discussion about shared spaces is one thing but the women vs trans and men has snowballed to the point that women are not hearing themselves and I think that is worrying and damaging.

Hillcrest2022 · 15/01/2023 19:49

Protecting women and young girls is important. I will die in that hill.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 15/01/2023 19:50

HappinesDependsOnYou · 15/01/2023 19:37

I had the same as @pishkashalante in Abercombe and Fitch. Just ripped the curtain open but I was not fully dressed. I had to hold a top over me as I was in a bra. He didn't apologise or close the curtain just looked and walked off! I won't use curtained changing rooms now if men are allowed in

There is a pattern here.

When have you ever known a woman to make a mistake like this without apologising fulsomely?

I have never had a woman get mixed up about the difference between "occupied" and "empty" at all, and certainly not without apologising!

If someone barges in on you when you're undressing and isn't desperately embarrassed, the reasonable conclusion is that they ^meant to barge in_.

This woman on twitter experienced several men doing it on one trip to one Primark in Stratford. Either men in Stratford are peculiarly dense, or...

Her tweet: You offered me a tenner when I told you I had several men open the curtain of my changing room. Told me you weren’t able to control a third party’s behaviour

Pictures show Primark's email.

To not feel safe in changing rooms anymore?

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:51

RinklyRomaine · 15/01/2023 19:48

Equal empathy is not a bad thing but where's the critical thought? How are you finding a balance between the need of safety and fear reduction for women and the need for men who identify with feminine stereotypes for validation? It isn't about those men's safety; in this country they are basically the safest demographic. Surely you can see one of those needs absolutely does outweighs the other?

True, if we only prioritise and care about physical safety in society, which is what discussions like this become and enable any statement to be made while backed up by other like minded posters.who have lost sight of their words towars axtjalh human beings.
If irs easy for folk to believe the likes of myself endorse rape and dont care about women then fair enough, it's so nonsenic that its worrying they actually believe it. It still does not take away from the fact that irs not cut and dry.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 15/01/2023 19:53

If you believe in single-sex spaces, what are you doing to keep them?

mbosnz · 15/01/2023 19:54

That is my only point. Discussion about shared spaces is one thing but the women vs trans and men has snowballed to the point that women are not hearing themselves and I think that is worrying and damaging.

Um, are trans and men hearing themselves? Because I don't think they are. They're certainly not listening to women. I think that could be worrying and damaging.

Dontevengetmest · 15/01/2023 19:54

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/01/2023 19:29

In the 70s, my mother was raped by a man a few years before she met my dad. It destroyed her. My dad is great but my mother has been very easily intimidated by men ever since, as a result.

Now in her 70s, she is absolutely horrified at the thought of a biological male in the changing room. She said she might just stop shopping if this is how things are going.

You can call me a transphobe every day of the week. Its absolutely disgraceful giving biological males women's protected spaces and I don't care how anyone tries to silence me for saying so. Call me a transphobe. I literally don't care.

your poor mum

I think the tide is turning. There are only so many times they can trot out such a lame, pointless insult and be taken seriously.

Yes, I agree that the tide seems to be turning. I also feel that 'transphobe' has no weight. It holds the same gravitas as when my 5 year old calls me a poo head. The word has been abused so much and thrown so liberally at people that it's meaningless now.

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:55

Hillcrest2022 · 15/01/2023 19:49

Protecting women and young girls is important. I will die in that hill.

So will I. But I will also be vocal about male's mental health and continue to research and learn about trans people because I care about all of them equally. The fact that this is such an awful contentious position to take on these types of boards is terrifying.

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:56

mbosnz · 15/01/2023 19:54

That is my only point. Discussion about shared spaces is one thing but the women vs trans and men has snowballed to the point that women are not hearing themselves and I think that is worrying and damaging.

Um, are trans and men hearing themselves? Because I don't think they are. They're certainly not listening to women. I think that could be worrying and damaging.

Some aren't. When I say women, I mean directly the women on these boards copying and pasting the same narrative. A category of people doesn't represent a person. There are many trans people who support your right to same sex spaces, as there are women like myself who don't agree with all aspects but some, and that is allowed.

SnackSizeRaisin · 15/01/2023 19:56

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:49

I did actually find your post quite interesting.

But I think thats the point. Islamophobia,.for example, originates from an fear that a particular group of society could , and have, harmed us. Of course, that is a prejudice people would not publicly state on a forum and say well fuck how they feel, I dont care. They just wouldnt.

But irs okay to do it about men and trans.

That is my only point. Discussion about shared spaces is one thing but the women vs trans and men has snowballed to the point that women are not hearing themselves and I think that is worrying and damaging.

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Can't you see that it's completely different? Most women have experienced some form of sexual harassment within the last year.
I don't know what proportion have experienced problems with Islamist extremists in the past year. It's probably somewhere well under 0.01% I would guess.
One fear is rational. The other isn't. Can't you see the difference?

RinklyRomaine · 15/01/2023 19:57

I prioritise the physical safety of women and girls over the feelings of males who perpetuate outdated stereotypes of womanhood every time, yes. It IS that cut and dried. Womens justified fear of male bodies does outweigh the hurt of males being recognised as males and the fact that you can suggest that is somehow nonsensical is just mad. You don't think it's nonsense. You are shifting ground once again. Male bodies don't belong in spaces women and girls are vulnerable. There's no linguistic gymnastics which change that fact without at least partly endorsing male violence against women and girls. It's never been about identity. It's about sex.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 15/01/2023 19:58

We need to keep women safe absolutely byt we are doing ourselves no favours painting ourselves as little princesses who are terrified at the thought of seeing a man. How on earth can we expect women to accurately assess danger if we behave like that?

What a croc of shit. Little princesses terrified of seeing a man?
No just not stupid enough to ignore the overwhelming evidence of male pattern behaviour.
One of the big ways of assessing danger is a man being in a female only space.

In all seriousness, ar what risk is a teenage girl in a changing room full of.womem to a lone passing man? genuinely?

Why should the girl have her safety, privacy and dignity compromised at all by any man in a female only space? There isn't always others around.
It's not just about physical or sexual attacks.

Girls learn from an early age to be wary of men for good reason.
Remove the men, remove the risk in those spaces.

In female only spaces, I consider any male who violates that boundary to be a risk. His chosen identity is irrelevant.

findmybalance · 15/01/2023 19:58

Dontevengetmest · 15/01/2023 19:54

Yes, I agree that the tide seems to be turning. I also feel that 'transphobe' has no weight. It holds the same gravitas as when my 5 year old calls me a poo head. The word has been abused so much and thrown so liberally at people that it's meaningless now.

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I don't think disagreeing with mixed spaces is transphobic. I don't agree with the position of "biological reality" but I don't think its transphobic. I do however think saying that we dont gie a fuck about trans people or peole "claiming to be men" which was said on t his thread is transphobic and I think that's fair enough.

Noonesperfect · 15/01/2023 19:59

"Anyone can use a mix sex space, woman who chose not to say on religion/moral grounds are being excluded by their choice. By excluding transwoman (also define when they become women, is it post surgery or post hormones) we are excluding them."

What a load of crap! Feeling vulnerable is not a choice!

Janesy123 · 15/01/2023 20:00

I don’t think a trans person would put themselves through the kind of social, medical, financial and personal hell it takes to transition simply so they can perve at cis women in changing rooms. I think these sort of press articles have become a trope for inciting hate. Please don’t buy into them.

Emotionalsupportviper · 15/01/2023 20:00

VinoDino · 15/01/2023 15:19

You can't magically fashion a vagina. You either have one or don't. Chopping one's penis off still renders you a man.

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Agree. Some (very few) TW have false "vaginas" constructed, but all that they are are a tube made of bowel or penis - they are not vaginas.

A man who has his sexual organs removed remains male. He is a eunuch - a mutilated man - but has not changed sex.

The only way to have a "full transition" is somehow to change the chromosomal make up of every cell in their bodies, while simultaneously altering bone density, lung capacity, fast twitch muscle proportions and numerous other physical characteristics. THAT would be a "full transition."

AllThingsServeTheBeam · 15/01/2023 20:00

Janesy123 · 15/01/2023 20:00

I don’t think a trans person would put themselves through the kind of social, medical, financial and personal hell it takes to transition simply so they can perve at cis women in changing rooms. I think these sort of press articles have become a trope for inciting hate. Please don’t buy into them.

Don't use the term 'cis'. I find it offensive.