To not feel safe in changing rooms anymore?

[WandaWomblesaurus]

nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/

Another story about an inappropriate man in a woman's changing room - is this what we are going to see more of in the UK now too? Having been both flashed and sexually assaulted in a public place, this chills me to the bone. Men who get a thrill out of exposing themselves to women will use any opportunity to do so. To think that they won't abuse women's spaces is to be wilfully and dangerously naive.

YANBU - Not unreasonable to think that flashing is flashing regardless of self ID and magical feelings.

YABU - Be kind to men etc etc

Ah, so perhaps we can decide what language they can use and where they can go. How good of us.

No, its true. I'm sorry that's a problem for you.

Grumpybutfunny · Today 18:47

^a lot of the data is American but just look atwww.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/report-says-at-least-32-transgender-people-were-killed-in-the-u-s-in-2022
At least 32 peopled KILLED in the US in one year. Not sex attacks or unwanted attention actually killed. Yes I think they are more vulnerable than individuals born XX.^

It bears no resemblance to the situation in the UK. In the USA, most murdered transexuals are involved in sex and drug trades, which are inherently dangerous.

They're not being killed for being trans.

There are about 25,000 murders annually in the USA, compared to about 650 in the UK.

Not all women feel vulnerable in a changing room, I’m used to mixed sex changing rooms and see this as a lot of hysteria

So because 'some' women don't feel vulnerable, you think 'all' women should be ok with mixed sex facilities?
Why do you think all the women who are vulnerable, or who simply want privacy and dignity away from males, should put their own feelings aside to accommodate the feelings of 'some' males?

Why are the male people allowed to feel unsafe in facilities with other men but when women say they feel unsafe in facilities with men they are 'bigots' or 'hysterical'. Why do the feelings of said male's overrule and override those of female's? Why?

Dismissing women's feelings and fears on the subject as hysteria is pure misogyny.

I bet half of these people don't even know any trans people

I know a grown man whose claim of womanhood is an obvious sexual paraphilia, and a few teenage girls who have grasped onto gender identity ideology as an unhealthy coping mechanism for their childhood trauma.
They are all trans under the big Stonewall umbrella.

Feelings do not mean facts. I can “feel” threatened but it does not mean I AM threatened

Yes, exactly!
Feelings do not mean facts. A man can say he "feels" like a woman but it does not mean he IS a woman.

I hate the pretence that men who claim to have a 'gender identity' are a completely harmless, vulnerable group that are somehow so different to other men that they should, without question, be suddenly exempt from all the rules other men are subject too. Why.

Why do people go along with such obvious absurdities. The only ones to benefit from removal of female only spaces are MEN.

Men are demanding access to female only spaces and the reason we must comply? Because being told NO hurts their feelings.
They don't NEED access, they WANT it.
They want all boundaries of women and children removed.

I think that you'll find that "most of the population" - of BOTH sexes - give a lot of f*cks, flying, landing, nesting, stationary or otherwise about who uses changing rooms.

This has nothing to do with being pro- or anti-trans - it has everything to do with the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

I couldn't give a damn if a man wants to use a traditional woman's name, and dress in stereotypical women's clothes - that is his choice, but anyone born with a penis, no matter how they describe themselves, has no place in a space intended for biological women.

There is no way to determine who is really trans (ie uncomfortable with the sex of their body, and more comfortable dressing etc like the opposite sex) , and who is an opportunist. This means that women and girls are at risk.

You might be happy to strip off in a room full of transwomen Lime, but other women aren't. You have no right to give away their safety and privacy, even if you don't mind surrendering your own.

Your making an awful lot of sweeping, offensive remarks there, and really sounding quite,.well, bonkers.

@VinoDino there is no need to use the word peddled

How come the 'womens rights' side of the debate are expressing their opinion, standing up for what is right but anyone who dares to say anything slightly off the narrative is a misogynist?

No it's disingenuous because you don't have figures to back it up. Because the figures don't exist. Because toilets have been sex segregated. How many rapes and assaults this has prevented it's unknowable.

I don't think there's a big benefit to society as a whole to guinea pig that concept

You're saying that if something doesn't deliver 100% results it's pointless. Like medicine and condoms for example?

Far fewer, @findmybalance. Not none. There doesn't seem to be a way to force men to commit NO rapes. What we do is keep the good men out so the bad men stand out. We make it so women feel they can report men in their space, request single sex medical care and accommodation. Not change that so women are shamed for reporting, refused medical care.

Ah, so perhaps we can decide what language they can use and where they can go. How good of us.

They can use whatever language they like. Just stay out of female spaces. That we will decide.

Female people exist.

The gender identity shared by trans women and some female people (those who self-identity as "cis women") is not the same thing as the experience of being female-bodied in both the needs of the body itself and in how society accomodates or reacts to it.

It is not anti trans to recognise that female people have needs, and a right to dignity and privacy, that are due to their being female, and that these needs and rights are separate and unconnected to whatever needs and rights trans (and indeed cis) women may have due to their gender.

However, refusal to recognise the moral right of female people to self define, self organise and state they have needs which are different to and sometimes exclusive of trans women is undoubtedly sexist and misogynistic.

What, like you are with saying women who are standing up for womens rights are 'primitive', and 'anti trans'? So it's ok to insult us women, but you can't take it back?

If the owners taken it into a female only space, then what they are doing with it is inappropriate.

Denying women the agency to refuse men in spaces where we are vulnerable IS misogynistic. Attempting to give consent on behalf of unconsenting women is misogynistic. Suggesting womanhood is just a feeling which can be adopted is...misogynistic.

But who decides?

Wherever trans people express themselves, I see numerous threads along the lines of.'hurt feelings boo hoo'.

But if the likes of that poster is okay with it, but you're not, we have to prioritise the thoughts of the one who has the bad feelings?

Which of course is right, but when did we decide that one group of people takes rough shod over others?

And before anyone points put that is what is happening in changing rooms, that's exactly my point.

What 'pro women' would like to happen is exactly what is happening now but with the roles reversed. So irs okay for you to demand something knowing that others dont want that, but not the other way round?

In all honesty I can see both sides and I just find this black and white narrative tiresome. I've been on this thread 5 minutes and called a number of offensive names. How is that okay?

@Britinme that is relevant to the argument how? This is about what goes on in public not behind closed doors.

@MadameMaxGoesler luckily science and society does agree sex changes can, do and should happen.

Maybe XX individuals should just be stronger. I lift and fight for fun. It is never the lone man following behind me or the old creepy guy in the corner of the pub I would be worried about. A few quick moves and he would regret it. What I'm more concerned about from a safety perspective is the teenager looking jumpy with his hands in his pockets or the blatant gangster at the end of the platform. Do they have a weapon, are they waiting for someone, have they been threatened and we could be caught up in a drive-bye etc.

The top and bottom of this is we as a society see boobs, penises etc as sexual objects. How is a bloke in a changing room seeing my bra any different to him seeing my bikini or if adults only me sun bathing topless. It isn't. I would love DS to grow up in a world where men and woman can walk around how they see fit without issue. Where modesty isn't a concern. Where a XY, XX, XXY etc who has made the decision to transition is treated equally and fairly as the sex they are assuming.

It is becoming more clear that gender is an identity that we assign at birth.

And again, comparing a biological, identifying male enabled by a biological identifying female to the presence of a trans women in a changing room
..the relevance?

I'm not in the least interested in "identities". That's your ideology, not mine. There are biological females who gullibly enable some biological males who use our spaces to indulge sexual fetishes in whichever way best pleases them, so it's relevant in that sense at least, isn't it?

At no point was what Huntley did himself used as a direct comparison to MTFs, that's purely your disingenuous spin. But there absolutely are biological males in prison who have preyed on children, who now identify as women. Sexual violence is 98% perpetrated by male people, "identity" is irrelevant. The point is about safeguarding. Which you clearly don't understand.

Your making an awful lot of sweeping, offensive remarks there, and really sounding quite,.well, bonkers.

Oh the irony.

Only if you count all woman as one single group with identical thoughts and feelings. I dont

Its disingenuous. If, as suggested above, that womens only spaces were designed to prevent rape then surely no rapes took place in a contained single sex space pre to self.ID, yes?

Rape is a provocative subject used to silence females who domt agree with the narrative. We obviously agree that rape is wrong, we just don't agree with you. And for some people on these forums that is something they canr comprehend

Of course rapes have happened in women’s self contained spaces before self-I’d. What is disingenuous is to suggest that if all these spaces are legally open to any males identifying as women, meaning no woman or child has the right to question their instinct to act alarmed or run out, or scream at them, there is going to be no difference.

And of course potential rape is not the only reason. A sense of privacy and dignity is a paramount one too.

Your making an awful lot of sweeping, offensive remarks there

As you haven't managed to choose the correct homophone, I'm not sure that anyone should take what you are trying to present as an argument with any seriousness.

What, pray tell, was offensive in her post?

Only if you count all woman as one single group with identical thoughts and feelings. I dont

Then accept that other women have the right to stand up for their own rights, and have their own boundaries.

No, what women want is not 'reversing the roles' at all. What we want, is the STATUS QUO (at least until recently) where all male bodies are kept out of womens spaces. Just what is it that you cannot understand about that?

Are you suggesting increased safeguarding measures haven't prevented any crimes? Obviously there's no way of knowing exactly what would have happened if these measures hadn't been brought in, but to do you have grounds to think they had no effect?

And the poster is not directly comparing the crime or the perpetrators, but the effect in terms of safeguarding measures that were brought in as a result.