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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not feel safe in changing rooms anymore?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 15/01/2023 08:34

nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/

Another story about an inappropriate man in a woman's changing room - is this what we are going to see more of in the UK now too? Having been both flashed and sexually assaulted in a public place, this chills me to the bone. Men who get a thrill out of exposing themselves to women will use any opportunity to do so. To think that they won't abuse women's spaces is to be wilfully and dangerously naive.

YANBU - Not unreasonable to think that flashing is flashing regardless of self ID and magical feelings.

YABU - Be kind to men etc etc

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
ScrollingLeaves · 15/01/2023 17:10

Burgoo· Today 15:15

“What does the data show? Not what you have experienced or what friends have. But the actual number of times this happens in a year? You can only really judge whether an emotion is reasonable based on how realistic the threat is. If it is 1% that is one thing, if it is 80% that is another.”

Safeguarding is based on the extreme end of the bell curve. Going camping in the very far North on a school trip, how likely was it that that boy would be taken from his tent and eaten by a polar bear? But he was. Now the children would not be taken there at all, or else there would be guards with guns awake all night.

There are enough unpleasant instances to put it mildly.grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens

The really interesting statistic is why 0.5 % of the population ( men who believe they are women) take precedence over the wish for privacy and protection of 50% of the population, women?

Since the census statistics have been published it has been found, not only that it is not true that transwomen never commit sex crimes, or that their’s is the same offending rate as for all other men, but that they have about a 3% higher rate.

Almost all transwomen still have a penis, which imo is a good thing. No one should feel they must castrate themselves. But whether or not castrated, transwomen (biological men) should remain as group of their own under certain circumstances, with their own facilities for their own dignity and protection, ( or else arrest men for treating them badly), and women and girls should be allowed to retain their own category - for changing rooms, dormitories, prisons, rape crisis centres, refuges, certain sports, all women short lists.

Anyman could walk into a changing room, it is true. Any man could dress up as a woman and go into a changing room even when they are not transgender. But if no women is allowed to be on the alert and react, that is awful.

Just recently a transwoman flashed in a Nottingham Department store. The transwoman (biological male) was wearing a short black dress they lifted to reveal their stockings and suspenders and , And posted photos of themselves grinning- one with a back drop of bras in the underwear department, two others while having a cup of coffee, the fourth with sheets and bedding self on a special website for their flashing incursions. This wasn’t a changing room, but doesn’t it show a cavalier boldness on the part of a pervert due to all the cheering and enabling?

You say that as a man you are not turned on by watching people get changed. It doesn’t matter what you are like.

It is well known, especially abroad that some men are hiding cameras even in lavatories.

Also, some men who would like to be women get a charge and frisson from female frequented spaces and fetishise them. They post pictures of themselves aroused in such places.

Apart from anything it isn’t about your feelings as such, but how women feel if they see you. there as a man even if you, and most men, are innocent. To not see that is in itself a concern!

There are also religious women, and traumatised women, who would need to exclude themselves from a space where men could be; and also people affected by learning difficulties who need a predictable world and could be very frightened by seeing a man in a woman’s space.

If anyone has brought women having certain sex based spaces for themselves as racial segregation, that is disrespectful and racist. In countries where most people are black, women and men are allowed the dignity of their own facilities. The captured young girls stolen by Boko Haram were not in their all girls’ school because their parents were racists.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/01/2023 17:10

if you think it’s only about the feelings of males then you are emphasising your transphobia. You will never attempt to understand and I'm done trying on this forum.

Understand what?

OMG12 · 15/01/2023 17:10

Beancounter1 · 15/01/2023 17:07

For the benefit of any readers who may be new to this debate:

Quinoawoman said:
"It is totally possible to be concerned [...] without being transphobic. Some posters have managed that [...]. Others sadly cannot, and feel the need to say that trans women can never be women, etc."
It is not transphobic to say that transwomen are not women and never can be. It is just recognising biological reality.

"Lots of people also screaming"
Note the emotive language.

"without factoring in the experience of the vast majority of the trans community - who are also a target for abuse from males"
Male violence against other males (transwomen) is not females' problem to solve. Transwomen need to solve their own problems without imposing on women's spaces.

"Personally, I would feel safer around trans women who still have penises than male-presenting penis owners"
How can you tell who still has a penis? It has no correlation with how the person presents outwardly.
Note that the poster is being discriminatory in making judgements depending on how the transwoman presents - a big mistake. My understanding is that the trans ideologues consider it transphobic to judge a person on how well they 'pass'. The 'male-presenting penis owner' could be a transwoman who is very early on in their 'journey'.

By the phrase 'male-presenting penis owners', I think the poster just means 'men': the ordinary non-trans variety. In which case her judgement of risk and feeling safer is skewed. Given that predatory non-trans men can and do dress as women to gain access to women, I suggest it is statistically more likely that male people in dresses proportionally pose more of a threat to women than male people in men's clothes. I would be interested in more research into the numbers.

Women have absolutely no way to tell who is a "genuine" transwoman (if there is such a thing) and who is a predator. Note also that this is a false dichotomy as a 'genuine' transwoman could simultaneously be predatory.

"trans women who still have penises [...] being aware that those who suffer abuse are at the hands of men are way less likely to perpetrate it against others."
This doesn't follow. People who had been abused, especially in childhood, are more, not less, likely to become abusers.
Even if a transwoman was not a victim of childhood abuse, it does not follow that they are less likely to abuse women, because research shows that transwomen have male patterns of offending behaviour: they commit crimes at the same rate, and of the same type, as other men, not the same as women.

"I understand from some of the articles linked here that there are exceptions, but as someone else has pointed out, we have very little hard data about how common this actually is."
It is difficult to collect such data, as a) the statistics are deliberately obscured, e.g. police reports of 'women' which omit to say that they are transwomen, and b) anyone attempting honest research would likely be called a transphobe and persecuted accordingly.

"it would be pretty traumatic [...] such vile views."
Note the emotive language.

It’s interesting that the word “vile” is most commonly used by a certain demographic- and it’s generally not women (unless they have been fed that line).

VinoDino · 15/01/2023 17:10

CaraVann · 15/01/2023 17:08

VinoDino that is exactly how I see it. If a trans woman cannot or will not see and understand the fears and needs of naturally born females then they are just not there. How can they say they are a woman when they still have such a a male mindset?

Nothing screams male entitlement like it! It's tragic how many fail to see their own goal.

Travis1 · 15/01/2023 17:11

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 15/01/2023 17:04

A blind man running for the bus could see your blatant femphobia and misogyny. If you think being pro womens rights is 'transphobia', then you must admit that trans 'rights' conflict with womens rights.

Btw, it's not 'trans' phobia (most of us women don't acknowledge that you can change sex ie 'trans' as a reality, so accusing us of 'trans' phobia is like a Christian accusing an atheist of Christophobia or Godphobia), it is MEN phobia. A fear of MALE bodies - regardless of how they 'identify'.

Oh I’ve really poked the bear now eh? Or is that bearphobia? 🤔

GrumpyPanda · 15/01/2023 17:12

Quinoawoman · 15/01/2023 14:28

So the changing rooms at my local pool are mixed, with lots of cubicles. People are expected to keep their swimsuit on when they shower (unless it's a cubicle shower) and change IN the lockers. It would be frowned upon for ANYONE to get their genitals out if front of anyone else, whether male, female, trans or whatever. I've never felt unsafe there or in any changing rooms.

Perhaps the answer is fewer flimsy curtains and more cubicles that lock on the inside, rather than mass hysteria and transphobia?

You do realize this kind of setup is sexist as fuck? Ive come across this when i was living in Holland. All cool for the blokes in their itsy bitsy speedos. But I'm supposed to walk around for the rest of the day itching all over because I wasn't given a chance to get the fucking chlorine off my skin underneath the swimsuit, or else have to nip home for a shower first?! Gross. Also sex discrimination pure and simple.

Thank God my home town's more sensible and has kept on the single sex communal showers. There's usually one cubicle in there as well for prudes like you, your choice. But of course you'd rather insist on spoiling things for everyone.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/01/2023 17:12

When did biological illiteracy become the in thing? This is out and out lies, so why are so many spouting it?

It's very odd, isn't it? Very tiresome, too.

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 15/01/2023 17:12

Burgoo · 15/01/2023 15:15

For transparency I am a guy, though no mention was made as to whether men could comment…
There are points for and against you being unreasonable…

What does the data show? Not what you have experienced or what friends have. But the actual number of times this happens in a year? You can only really judge whether an emotion is reasonable based on how realistic the threat is. If it is 1% that is one thing, if it is 80% that is another.

Feelings do not mean facts. I can “feel” threatened but it does not mean I AM threatened. Again. it all comes down to how realistic the fear is. There is a huge issue with confirmation bias in all areas of life. We think we are at risk and therefore any (even remote) suggestion that we are at risk is expanded in our heads.

Would it be reasonable to be fearful of people based on race, ethnicity, sexuality etc? Is there a free pass for fearing all men?

That said, it makes sense why if you have had an experience that you may be fearful. If I were attacked by someone of a specific background, then I may be wary of that group in the future. Ironically, I was attacked by a person of another race once. If I were to say “I am fearful of X type of person” I would be called racist. But it does seem okay to say “I am fearful that men will attack me”. Its rather curious and shows a complete blind spot.

It is also interesting how we think that men will just randomly attack in changing rooms. If they are going to do it they will do it in areas where there are much less cameras (not in the actual rooms but in the shop just outside the changing rooms) like parks, streets etc. Men, as a rule, don’t need to say “I am a woman” to attack women. It is a red herring really.

As a man I don’t believe most men get “turned on” by woman getting changed. It isn’t exactly something people fantasise about from my experience. I’ve got many male friends who can’t even imagine spying on women in changing rooms, they are often there to shock horror get changed! I’ve also got many female friends, none of which report that they have ever had this experience.
In short, it may be reasonable if you have experienced something unpleasant AND it is easy to generalise and see risk everywhere. And I say this a male who was sexually assaulted by a male in a bar.

Oooohkay well I'm willing so,

The data shows a lot of men attack women, who knows why?
I haven't even bothered asking friends, I cant tell you how many times this type of thing happens to me, I lost count somewhere in the hundreds, I don't need to know the official figures, but they are bad. Check them out for yourself, office for national statistics.

If feelings do not mean facts then men cant feel they are women. Glad we agree.

Men cross a spectrum of race, ethnicity, sexuality etc, still men though.
Do we need a free pass? Who decides which men we can fear? Any man who decides the female only space is for him too is an immediate possible threat. Because decent men dont invade female only. Hth.

Heres a non exhaustive list of things men with other identities do
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Including in changing rooms, hospitals et al.

Men dont need to say anything, I agree, but I'm sure it's quite fun for some to transgress boundaries like single sex and hurt women deliberately or incidentally.

A lot of your "friends" will not be nearly as nice as you think. Is anyone really going to admit that yes they are a rapist? When their entire friend group or standing is at stake?

You think your female friends are going to tell you about any assaults, rapes, uneasy feelings about a man, when you have no empathy? When women feel dirty and used and fucking terrible about that assault or rape, when most of us dont even report our rapes, because we would have to be a nun to get it through court.

As a man you evidently have absolutely no idea. There are threads on here about what age it started, clue at puberty, how many times, clue many times per woman, who did the assaulting, raping, always men. So men as a class are dangerous to women.
Fin

DoodlesMam · 15/01/2023 17:13

women's spaces are for biological women only. If you have a penis, then please use the mens.

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 15/01/2023 17:13

Travis1 · 15/01/2023 17:11

Oh I’ve really poked the bear now eh? Or is that bearphobia? 🤔

So you admit you are simply out to upset women on here? How charming of you men.

jeaux90 · 15/01/2023 17:14

I actually take a lot of heart from this thread. So many amazing women out there defending our rights and the principles of safeguarding with good clear arguments and references.

I've noted the TRAs on here reeling out all the tired arguments and accusations. They really have nothing to defend their case.

Men who think they are women are protected in the Equality Act 2010. They have the same rights and protections as other protected characteristics.

What they won't seem to clearly state is what rights they don't have. Self ID is off the table, but they already have the right and process to get a GRC, so what rights do they actually want?

Mine? Not whilst there is a breath in my body.

ScrollingLeaves · 15/01/2023 17:14

“they lifted to reveal their stockings and suspenders and p*s
(That turned into bold writing unintentionally.)

Probablymagrat · 15/01/2023 17:14

Shops could make all changing rooms safe for all people. Do away with the silly curtains and replace with a lockable door that goes all the way down to the floor.

Also in the old days, shops used to have a member of staff in the changing area, which would help with feeling safe, and also probably reduce shoplifting.

FlowerArranger · 15/01/2023 17:15

Skodacool · 15/01/2023 16:33

My view is that any genuine transgender man who still has male genitals would be sensitive enough not to flash in a female changing room.

But the threat doesn't come from the (absolutely tiny minority of) genuine trans men. It's perverts and men who use it as a cover to spy on women and otherwise make them feel uncomfortable - or assault them, which has happened, both in prisons and hospitals.

DoodlesMam · 15/01/2023 17:16

Quinoawoman · 15/01/2023 14:38

Thanks for the tip. Just reported 3 comments.

wanting to have privacy from the opposite sex is not transphobia dear.

DoodlesMam · 15/01/2023 17:17

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 15/01/2023 16:33

@Quinoawoman But it is a BIOLOGICAL and FACTUAL TRUTH that trans women can never be women. Are you seriously arguing against chromosomes, DNA and biological fact?

facts. Not phobia, facts.

HRTQueen · 15/01/2023 17:17

YANBU

women often act differently when men are not around it’s not unusual to strike up casual conversations because we are off guard I think many of us don’t give it much thought

men are always trying to encroach on our spaces to remain in control

lifeturnsonadime · 15/01/2023 17:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/01/2023 17:10

if you think it’s only about the feelings of males then you are emphasising your transphobia. You will never attempt to understand and I'm done trying on this forum.

Understand what?

I can only think it's that us silly old women won't understand that men must get what they want.

OoooohMatron · 15/01/2023 17:18

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MarieIVanArkleStinks · 15/01/2023 17:18

"Lots of people also screaming"
Note the emotive language.

Indeed. Note where it's coming from. Threats to kill, rape and other pleasantries when women have the temerity to say 'no', and to explain through rational argument and by means of worrying statistics as to the harm inflicted on women by men, or which sex is responsible for 98% of sexual offences, as the reasons why they are saying no.

Then we have the alterative prosestation: 'we'll kill ourselves if we don't get what we want'.

This is coming from the group claiming to be the most marginal and oppressed of any group on the globe. The murder statistics don't bear out the argument that trans women are at greater risk of harm at the hands of men than are women - the opposite is demonstrably true. The suicide statistics don't bear out the suggestion that trans people are more at risk of that, either.

From these points alone it's clear whose position is based on irrefutable facts and reason, and who are the ones resulting to 'screaming' and that other delightful label so beloved of misogynists: 'hysteria'.

DARVO at its finest.

AngelinaFibres · 15/01/2023 17:18

Limesodas · 15/01/2023 14:58

Except trans women are women

They have every right to be changing in the women’s changing rooms

thankfully most get this

Transwomen are transwonen. Biological males who,except for a vanishingly small number, all have their penises fully intact . I don't want to see it . I don't want to share a changing room with someone who is clearly a man despite the wearing of a 'woman costume'.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 15/01/2023 17:19

*resorting, not 'resulting', apologies.

OMG12 · 15/01/2023 17:19

GrumpyPanda · 15/01/2023 17:12

You do realize this kind of setup is sexist as fuck? Ive come across this when i was living in Holland. All cool for the blokes in their itsy bitsy speedos. But I'm supposed to walk around for the rest of the day itching all over because I wasn't given a chance to get the fucking chlorine off my skin underneath the swimsuit, or else have to nip home for a shower first?! Gross. Also sex discrimination pure and simple.

Thank God my home town's more sensible and has kept on the single sex communal showers. There's usually one cubicle in there as well for prudes like you, your choice. But of course you'd rather insist on spoiling things for everyone.

Exactly- my local swimming pool has this set up, I was still faced with a naked male when coming out the showers. I faced loads of comments on here about oh the poor man this was probably an innocent mistakeblah blah blah! Luckily the police were far more interested.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 15/01/2023 17:19

Why can't transwomen use the male changing rooms? Why do they need to go with the women?

Is there any evidence to show that transwomen get attacked in men's changing rooms? What does the data show? Not what you have experienced or what friends have. But the actual number of times this happens in a year? You can only really judge whether an emotion is reasonable based on how realistic the threat is. If it is 1% that is one thing, if it is 80% that is another.

Do men get turned on by the idea of watching transwomen changing? As a woman I don’t believe most men get “turned on” by woman getting changed. It isn’t exactly something people fantasise about from my experience. I’ve got many male friends who can’t even imagine spying on transwomen in changing rooms, they are often there to <shock horror> get changed!

PoIIyPandemonium · 15/01/2023 17:20

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