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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not feel safe in changing rooms anymore?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 15/01/2023 08:34

nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/

Another story about an inappropriate man in a woman's changing room - is this what we are going to see more of in the UK now too? Having been both flashed and sexually assaulted in a public place, this chills me to the bone. Men who get a thrill out of exposing themselves to women will use any opportunity to do so. To think that they won't abuse women's spaces is to be wilfully and dangerously naive.

YANBU - Not unreasonable to think that flashing is flashing regardless of self ID and magical feelings.

YABU - Be kind to men etc etc

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
TheKeatingFive · 15/01/2023 16:57

Really? A blind man running for the bus could see the transphobia on this site

Can you explain what's transphobic about standing up for women's rights, safety and dignity?

jibbe · 15/01/2023 16:57

women didn’t choose to allow this period!
And yes a period is something only women have

Supersimkin2 · 15/01/2023 16:57

YANBU. Kindness ain’t a penis in the wrong place.

CaraVann · 15/01/2023 16:59

Quinoawoman I have 2 transgender people in my family (one is a child) and whilst I have compassion for them and the struggles they are going through, their rights should not trump or override those of say, my 14 year old dd who should also feel safe whilst in a potentially vulnerable position ie whilst changing/showering/using a public toilet especially if she is on her own or my elderly female relative who found herself in a 4 person (female) ward with a trans woman in the bed next to her.
Females have lived in (quiet) fear of unfamiliar males since time began, we shouldn’t have to feel that fear in traditionally female only areas.

lifeturnsonadime · 15/01/2023 17:00

Travis1 · 15/01/2023 16:55

🤣🤣🤣 what anti trans crowd?! Really? A blind man running for the bus could see the transphobia on this site

Women believing in biological reality and wanting single sex spaces are not transphobic.

Why do you think that males should be allowed to impose themselves on women based on their feelings?

Noonesperfect · 15/01/2023 17:00

@Limesodas

Of course, we are supposed to weep at the mere sight of a penis as women are so ‘vulnerable’

I guess there may be plenty of women who don't care, but what about young girls. I for one would have felt very intimidated as a young girl with men around me flopping their todgers around. I don't particularly want to see them now thank you very much!

Fladdermus · 15/01/2023 17:00

BethDuttonsTwin · 15/01/2023 16:54

Recent research shows they commit sex offences at a far higher rate. There’s a thread running on the feminism board if anyone is interested.

Is that related to the wider definition of trans? I believe the Swedish study only included males who were fully transitioned.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 15/01/2023 17:01

vulnerable group of people under far more threat than a woman will ever be

These males are not more vulnerable than women and girls so stop with the bullshit claims.

If they don't want to be in men's spaces they can campaign for 3rd mixed 'gender' spaces where they can feel 'safe' with all the other gender identities and any women happy to share with men. Because if they just want access to female only spaces, then it's about validation not safety isn't it?

Except trans women are women

No, they are male. Males are not a type of woman.
Dysphoric men are not women.

Gender ideology is a religious, feelings based belief system with zero evidence.

They have every right to be changing in the women’s changing rooms

No, they don't.

I trust no male that demands access to female only spaces, where women and children are at their most vulnerable.
They are kept out as a sex class. Their special gender feelings are irrelevant.

Noonesperfect · 15/01/2023 17:03

VinoDino · 15/01/2023 14:56

It's not transphobic to want biological males to stay out of womens spaces.

This for the posters struggling with the meaning of transphobia.

Absolutely this! ☝️. TBH I think some on here are just enjoying goading those who want penis free areas.

TheKeatingFive · 15/01/2023 17:03

Except trans women are women

When did biological illiteracy become the in thing? This is out and out lies, so why are so many spouting it?

Probablymagrat · 15/01/2023 17:04

MattDamon · 15/01/2023 13:44

It's costing the shops more because I have a load of sizes delivered to my house so I can try on and return the ones that don't fit with free return shipping.

This, I buy everything I can online now apart from the food shop. Not just because of the men pretending to be women issue, but it certainly doesn't help.

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 15/01/2023 17:04

Travis1 · 15/01/2023 16:55

🤣🤣🤣 what anti trans crowd?! Really? A blind man running for the bus could see the transphobia on this site

A blind man running for the bus could see your blatant femphobia and misogyny. If you think being pro womens rights is 'transphobia', then you must admit that trans 'rights' conflict with womens rights.

Btw, it's not 'trans' phobia (most of us women don't acknowledge that you can change sex ie 'trans' as a reality, so accusing us of 'trans' phobia is like a Christian accusing an atheist of Christophobia or Godphobia), it is MEN phobia. A fear of MALE bodies - regardless of how they 'identify'.

VinoDino · 15/01/2023 17:04

Trans activists reeeaallly seem to hate the people they profess to literally be. Women!

If it wasn't so tragic I'd laugh.

SweetSenorita · 15/01/2023 17:05

Limesodas · 15/01/2023 14:26

Of course they are

I don’t give a fig who is changing next to me, neither does any woman I know. It’s something you only really seen moaned about on here or on JK Rowlings Twitter feed.

Thankfully times are changing and my views are the norm and are being continually validated by new legislation and political support.

I don't believe you!

ScribblingPixie · 15/01/2023 17:06

pishkashalante · 15/01/2023 08:37

YANBU. I had a man open the curtain on me in Primark a few weeks ago.

Luckily I had just got fully dressed.

He apologised and I think it was a mistake, but it’s made me apprehensively about changing rooms now.

No way that's a mistake. Someone did this to me in Uniqlo the other week & bluffed it out but I wasn't having it. If the curtains closed you know someone's in there.

TheKeatingFive · 15/01/2023 17:07

Is that related to the wider definition of trans? I believe the Swedish study only included males who were fully transitioned.

My understanding is that it's based on looking at the proportion of the population who claim to be trans and then comparing that to the rate of trans identified in the prison system for sex crimes. That's remarkably high.

So either sex offending is much greater among the trans population or prisoners are abusing self Id to get into women's prisons.

Travis1 · 15/01/2023 17:07

lifeturnsonadime · 15/01/2023 17:00

Women believing in biological reality and wanting single sex spaces are not transphobic.

Why do you think that males should be allowed to impose themselves on women based on their feelings?

Why does my opinion bother you so much when you have screeds of others here agreeing with you? How do you know I am not transgender? How do you know I’m not just fucking with you for shits and giggles?

if you think it’s only about the feelings of males then you are emphasising your transphobia. You will never attempt to understand and I’m
done trying on this forum.

SweetSenorita · 15/01/2023 17:07

Limesodas · 15/01/2023 14:58

Except trans women are women

They have every right to be changing in the women’s changing rooms

thankfully most get this

Trans women are men. They can fuck off back to the male facilities!

Beancounter1 · 15/01/2023 17:07

For the benefit of any readers who may be new to this debate:

Quinoawoman said:
"It is totally possible to be concerned [...] without being transphobic. Some posters have managed that [...]. Others sadly cannot, and feel the need to say that trans women can never be women, etc."
It is not transphobic to say that transwomen are not women and never can be. It is just recognising biological reality.

"Lots of people also screaming"
Note the emotive language.

"without factoring in the experience of the vast majority of the trans community - who are also a target for abuse from males"
Male violence against other males (transwomen) is not females' problem to solve. Transwomen need to solve their own problems without imposing on women's spaces.

"Personally, I would feel safer around trans women who still have penises than male-presenting penis owners"
How can you tell who still has a penis? It has no correlation with how the person presents outwardly.
Note that the poster is being discriminatory in making judgements depending on how the transwoman presents - a big mistake. My understanding is that the trans ideologues consider it transphobic to judge a person on how well they 'pass'. The 'male-presenting penis owner' could be a transwoman who is very early on in their 'journey'.

By the phrase 'male-presenting penis owners', I think the poster just means 'men': the ordinary non-trans variety. In which case her judgement of risk and feeling safer is skewed. Given that predatory non-trans men can and do dress as women to gain access to women, I suggest it is statistically more likely that male people in dresses proportionally pose more of a threat to women than male people in men's clothes. I would be interested in more research into the numbers.

Women have absolutely no way to tell who is a "genuine" transwoman (if there is such a thing) and who is a predator. Note also that this is a false dichotomy as a 'genuine' transwoman could simultaneously be predatory.

"trans women who still have penises [...] being aware that those who suffer abuse are at the hands of men are way less likely to perpetrate it against others."
This doesn't follow. People who had been abused, especially in childhood, are more, not less, likely to become abusers.
Even if a transwoman was not a victim of childhood abuse, it does not follow that they are less likely to abuse women, because research shows that transwomen have male patterns of offending behaviour: they commit crimes at the same rate, and of the same type, as other men, not the same as women.

"I understand from some of the articles linked here that there are exceptions, but as someone else has pointed out, we have very little hard data about how common this actually is."
It is difficult to collect such data, as a) the statistics are deliberately obscured, e.g. police reports of 'women' which omit to say that they are transwomen, and b) anyone attempting honest research would likely be called a transphobe and persecuted accordingly.

"it would be pretty traumatic [...] such vile views."
Note the emotive language.

PoIIyPandemonium · 15/01/2023 17:08

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

OMG12 · 15/01/2023 17:08

StaunchMomma · 15/01/2023 16:53

This is the thing for me, too. Why do they feel the need to flaunt it?! Just use a cubicle, FFS.

Because that’s part of the thrill for some. It’s power over women. The sooner this is acknowledged rather than the lie that it’s all about people feeling they are born in the wrong body the better. There are multiple reasons behind people trying to ditch their sex. Some are psychologically innocent, many or not.

CaraVann · 15/01/2023 17:08

VinoDino that is exactly how I see it. If a trans woman cannot or will not see and understand the fears and needs of naturally born females then they are just not there. How can they say they are a woman when they still have such a a male mindset?

SweetSenorita · 15/01/2023 17:08

Soubriquet · 15/01/2023 15:08

No they aren’t.

TW are biologically men and if they have a penis, they belong in the mens changing room.

They belong in make spaces irrespective of their penis status. A man with no penis is NOT a woman!

lifeturnsonadime · 15/01/2023 17:10

if you think it’s only about the feelings of males then you are emphasising your transphobia. You will never attempt to understand and I’m
done trying on this forum.

Well it is only about males in the context of this thread which is about what used to be single sex changing rooms and the impact on women of males in those spaces!

I don't care whether you are a man a woman or a person who claims a trans identity. I DO care that you are putting the wishes of men before the safety and dignity of women in the context of single sex spaces.

It is very telling that yet another advocate for men in women's spaces is leaving the thread rather than responding with robust arguments.

ResisterRex · 15/01/2023 17:10

Really? A blind man running for the bus could see the transphobia on this site

Proof, as if it were needed, of the total disregard for respect for other people. Trampling over disabled groups to prove a point...well. It proves a point, but not the one you think you're making.

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