AIBU to not give DH a medal for this shop?

[DinnerThyme]

I love DH more than anyone else on this planet and he's my absolute best friend. He's kind, he's smart, he's interesting, he's handsome, he's witty, he's fun. But, he is completely fucking incompetent and it drives me insane. I have to do everything. Granted, he works very hard, when being micromanaged to the nth degree and would work 24/7 if asked - but, unless given explicitly clear instructions, everything he does just falls apart. It's 10x more work for both us so I don't think it's even "strategic incompetence".

A few months ago, it all came to a head. I expressed how unbelievably miserable it was making me to always have to be the only real adult in the relationship, that his incompetence is hurting me and that he's a grown adult who should be able to cope with all of these things. He fully accepted the problem and the responsibility to fix it. Since then, to my mind, things have not improved enough. To his mind, he has improved and is trying.

He outlined his examples:

• "Offering to help with [an aspect of my job]" - (Essentially, I give a lot of presentations and it's useful to run through those with someone before I give them. For years, when I ask DH, he'll say yes and then try to avoid it meaning that I waste huge amounts of time waiting for him (like "oh, sure, I'll just go to the bathroom and then we'll run through it" - but then he goes off and does something else and doesn't come back so I spent ages waiting for him for no reason). He says that he's massively improved on that - but, to my memory, he's not helped me one single time since the big argument - he's just promised to, which is no change from before. I've said it's fine to say no but he won't, he'll just lead me on. It's worth noting that he has expertise in an area which is why it's useful to have his input and I have expertise in an area of his work and frequently help him out with his.
• "Keeping the house tidy" - We've had to cancel his family coming over twice since the big argument because the house was too messy and I refused to tidy the whole house by myself for his guests. Any tidying he's done has been under explicit instructions from me (literally to the point of "there's some rubbish, put that in the bin", "that's DS's shoe, put that in the cupboard"). When left to tidy by himself, I'll return an hour later and it's literally not tidier - he'll have moved one pile of crap to one place and put another pile of crap where it was. The only exception to this is the dishwasher, which DH insists on doing every single night before bed, regardless of how much actually needs to go into it. To my memory, he's not done any tidying at all without being explicitly asked other than the dishwasher. In fairness to him, he does also do laundry and has some kind of "system" that I can't fathom for where he puts different baskets depending on whether they're clean/dirty/wet/dry and then split by person...I don't understand his system so I don't touch it and leave him to it. It apparently works for him (except on the frequent occasions that he can't find anything, when he's not sure if a basket is clean or dirty and when wet baskets get forgotten about and need rewashing) so I don't micromanage that and just leave him to his chaos "system". He has not swept, hoovered, wiped, mopped, dusted...
• "Taken charge of food deliveries...I did the last one without any support" - He's done two. The first one I sat with him, with a list and told him exactly what to put in the basket, in exact quantities. The second one, I told him some things that were needed (shampoo, conditioner, nappies etc) but left him to it. He bought the non-food items I asked for but, in terms of just food, he bought: sausage rolls, juice, pasta frozen ready meal, smoked salmon, cream cheese, cheddar, apples, crisps, squeezy fruit pouches, bear strawberry yoyos, frozen pizza, curly fries, avocados, milk, bread, bananas. This is to sustain a family of four, for a week. Keep in mind, I can't have dairy so I'm not able to eat the sausage rolls, the pasta ready meal, the cream cheese, the cheddar, the frozen pizzas or the milk. I'm baffled as to how he believes that this is a sign he's done something good. I feel like it's what a 10yo would buy.
• "Dealing with DS and DD issues in the morning (like nappies and feeding) and not just fucking off" - ok, yeah, if one of the DCs need a nappy change or DD is crying for milk and I'm not there then he will now change/feed them instead of waiting for me to come back and sort it out. I'm not sure why that's such a huge win though.

AIBU to expect more "progress" than this in three months? Granted, he has made progress, he did do a Tesco delivery by himself and he does change nappies/feed the baby if it happens right in front of him and he does load and put on the dishwasher. Am I being too harsh?

YABU - He's made some progress so that shows he is putting in effort, stick at it and he'll get there.
YANBU - He's made such slow progress that he's clearly not putting in any effort, cut your losses, he won't get there.

"I think whether he has ADHD is actually slightly moot at this point because so much of this seems to be attitude based
Agree wholeheartedly with this."

Yep. As I said, he's taking the piss out of you OP and he doesn't give a shiny shite. The potential ADHD is irrelevant

One thing I thought was telling was that he cancelled his parents coming because the house wasn't tidy. So he recognised it wasn't tidy enough? It's not that he doesn't notice or care about tidiness? You hadn't tidied, he realised it looked like shit, so cancelled them coming over?

I don't understand why it takes two of you to do an online shop and take delivery of it?

Another perspective: Do not wait until the house is tidy to see friends and family. They won’t mind if it’s a bit messy. Connecting with the people we love is more important than having an immaculate home. No reason for you to shoulder all the shame of being messy, that is the patriarchy speaking….

ADHD brains have a different relationship with dopamine production. They function at their best on tasks where dopamine is produced, and their ability to perform can be dependent on the production of dopamine. This is why they can present differently in different settings and doing different tasks.

It might be worth, if you’re not already, suggesting that he does the laundry with his favourite music / tv show on to give him a dopamine boost at the same time?

That might also not work for him, but could be worth a try. Sorry if thats a bit patronising, I’m just trying to think of things that I’ve found helpful. In my experience its a lot of trial and error. And of course, as I’ve said before, it might not be ADHD, just a suggestion.

It is important that he takes responsibility for his own progress though. Its great that you’re supportive of him, but ultimately he has to want to find the way forwards.

If my DiL told me DS was behaving in this way, which she would because she is chinese and is mercilessly blunt about everything, I would be mortified.
As it is my DS shops, cooks and cleans without needing to be told because I made sure he could do all of that stuff before he left home.
I'd be furious if I found out he was taking the piss like this.

I think being competent in career is different to being competent in household tasks. Often in careers you are given years worth of (often spoon-fed) training and refining of skills in a structured environment. Household tasks rely a lot more on taking initiative and forward planning, often for unseen things.

I’m also aware that how you grew up can impact your domestic competence as an adult. I was brought up cooking for myself, doing DIY, being taught to handle my own finances. My dear DH wasn’t, had everything handed to him on a silver platter well into his 20s, and has thereafter struggled for a number of years to pull up his bootstraps and learn to be an equal partner to me. We still aren’t there yet but he is learning and I do feel aware of the inherent strengths and weaknesses we each have which are resulting from our childhood (I’m aware I have weaknesses too!) which I think can mean progress is slower than we would want it to be. I’m also aware that he can honestly believe he is doing his best, but his bar for what that looks like is too low and I’ve pulled him up on it. He is starting to get it now but I think changing anyones behaviour (even our own) unfortunately isn’t a quick or streamlined experience.

On the ND topic, I’m dyslexic and really struggle with remembering things. I can’t do a complete food shop without a list, I have to put reminders that bing at specific times on my phone to remind me to pick up essential items or buy car insurance etc, I forget to do tasks DH will have literally just reminded me of if I’m momentarily distracted by something else. HOWEVER I know this about myself and work extremely hard to compensate. I fail quite often, but I succeed far more. My DH is understanding of this. The issue for OP is that her DH, even if he has ADHD, doesn’t take the initiative to figure out how to be (or strive to be) an equal partner to her. That’s the key issue.

OP, are you able to have another conversation with your DH to discuss everything you’ve talked about here? I think it needs hammering home how much you do (with all that spare time you (don’t) have as a solicitor in a US firm as well!) compared to how much he does and that it’s not acceptable. What does he intend to do about it? “I’ll do better” without tangible action plans isn’t enough. If he can plan a lesson he can plan his week and use transferable skills to effectively “lesson plan” his chores if he needs to. It’s fine if he does need to, but in that case he actually HAS to go ahead and do it.

If he won't help with your presentations, I don't understand why you are still asking? Do the same thing, get the same result, etc.

I read your posts up until the one about your meal plan and shopping list. I found that incomprehensible so if that's the way you presented it to him then no wonder he can't do it. He may have ADHD (I think so) or not, but your expectations of transferring the info from your brain to his brain may also be unreasonable. "Just the carbs and flavor base changes" and "80g is a portion of veg so he can use that to ensure we have enough." Eh? However if you can make a standard shopping list together, then that might be workable. For example:
Weekly
3 quarts of milk [what kind]
Total of 20 fruit in any combination of bananas + apples + pears = 20.
(or if that's too complicated, then 6 apples + 6 bananas + 6 pears + 1 strawberry punnet + 1 blueberry punnet)
Total of 20 fresh vegetables in any combination of [insert veg here] (note: how do you divide up vegetables here? 3 cucumbers? 20 cucumbers? I'm a bit lost there)
1 bag frozen peas and carrots
1 bag frozen green beans
1 bag any OTHER frozen veg of your choice (examples: cauliflower, broccoli)
2 lb meat for Monday dinner (beef OR chicken OR prawns OR pork OR fish) - get whatever's cheapest
2 lb meat for Wednesday dinner (one of the above meats, excluding from the list whatever ) - get whatever's cheapest
2 lb meat for Friday dinner (beef OR chicken OR prawns OR pork OR fish, get a third meat different than whatever is already in your basket)
One frozen pepperoni pizza size 12 inch for our weekly Saturday pizza night
Toilet paper 4 rolls
Kitchen towels 2 rolls
Anything else on the paper list I've put on the refrigerator - check list before you complete the online order.

If he does the laundry then leave him to it. If he's washing your clean things then you need a system to separate your clean and dirty things in space. I put my delicates (which only I am allowed to wash) in a hanging bag in my closet. My DH is not allowed to touch it. The onus is on me to put my delicates into that bag after use if I don't want them to go into the regular laundry. If he forgets to hang things up then he should try a reminder on his phone.

Your dh sounds like the kind of person who needs his chores to be the same every single time. So it will probably work better for you if you can give him tasks that meet that requirement even if they are more work. For example you might be able to add to his dishwasher routine that he also wipes down the counters and sweeps the kitchen floor every night before bed. My kid who has ADHD is completely unable to organise his bedroom but cleans the bathroom (the worst job, IMO, I would definitely take organising a bedroom over cleaning a bathroom if it were left to me, but to each his own) because it's the same thing every time.

Taking care of the kids, on the other hand, I would draw a hard line on that. He needs to learn how to do it. What if something happens to you?

Head above the parapet not carpet. Why would it be carpet?

Ok enough people have mentioned this now. Drop it and either help the OP or bugger off.

OP it sounds really difficult, especially that you love him so much and he sounds like a generally good guy. This aside though, he really needs to step up - especially regarding shopping and meal planning. I understand your frustration, it would also frustrate me. I hope that you can work it out.

You trying to work him out / sort this out is you taking on yet more. If he's the great guy you say he is just ask him what he thinks the solution is. If he doesn't know ask him if he thinks you should have to continue to live like this. I wonder how he'd cope if he lived alone? Did he live alone before you got together?

Wow. He's really trained you well, OP. Look at you working the long hours, bringing in vastly more money than him, and also doing all the childcare and housework, while he gets to act all confused and do FUCK ALL. I say this out of concern for you- WTF is wrong you? GET ANGRY! LOSE YOUR SHIT AT HIM. KICK HIM OUT. He is grinding you down.

your explanation before was good but perhaps a lot to take in verbally. Could you word that in a list? So not a verbatim 'buy this' but rules that can be followed?

• this many vegetables enough for 6 dinners a week. need Yg of veggies per meal but can vary what veg you get
• this many protein - avoid two of the same
• snacks for the kids lunches

etc

?then get him to do a dry run and show you the basket for a sanity check? That gives him structure without being proscriptive and lets him own the detail of filling it in.

Really, really sick of the ADHD card being used to excuse lazy fucking men who are doing this shit on purpose because they simply don't want to do it.
They feel it's your job and your should do it.

What if he does have ADHD? Then what.
He gets a free pass not to do anything and his wife has to do it for him.

Notice it's only men. Always men who can't fucking figure out how to feed themselves or buy groceries, or do some laundry.

Women who are ND never get a free fucking pass for these these ever.

And I'm ND with ADHD as well as other things. I still have to feed myself and others, clean, clean myself, take care of a house and my children when they were young. Nobody made a list for me. Nobody said poor poor dear can't do it herself.

You fuckers that use this excuse are the most ableist of them all. You're basically saying we're fucking invalids who need everything done for them because we're too fucked up to do it or learn how.

To OP, you've written about this lazy fucker multiple times. He's not going to change. H doesn't want to. So you either put up with him, hire everything out, or you leave.

Exactly @emptythelitterbox !

One thing I thought was telling was that he cancelled his parents coming because the house wasn't tidy. So he recognised it wasn't tidy enough? It's not that he doesn't notice or care about tidiness? You hadn't tidied, he realised it looked like shit, so cancelled them coming over?
It is telling. I'd not picked up on that.

So he does notice.
Funny how these men don't notice until it suits them and then they do.

emptythelitterbox if I could send an unmumsnetty round of applause to you, I would.
There's loads of us who are ND and getting on with life because we have to find things that work for us.

I find I'm prone to getting distracted and can spend a morning cleaning with little impact. I use the TOMM guided cleans to keep my focus.
What DH doesn't do is spell out "Lola, you need to empty the bathroom bin. Don't forget to put bleach in the toilet. When you take the towel out for the wash, you need to put a new hand towel back in so don't forget. Here's a checklist for you to follow and you can't go onto another room until you've ticked everything".
He's my partner, not my parent and how bloody unattractive must it be to have to have your spouse nagging you.

You think it’s demanding to expect your life partner to parent his own children and contribute to the running of his home?

are you posting from the 1950s?

Really, really sick of the ADHD card being used to excuse lazy fucking men who are doing this shit on purpose because they simply don't want to do it.

This.

WTAF

Op, I do not know how you have managed to get through this marriage - the level of incompetence would just be a killer for me - and my marriage is less than ideal

Also:

your explanation before was good but perhaps a lot to take in verbally.

***
A lot to take in?!
More excuses for poor diddum's hubby who can't figure out how to feed his family.

He has been eating food his entire life - he don't need no-one breaking it down for him - HE CAN FIGURE IT OUT HIMSELF!!

And if can't remember verbal instructions, he is adult enough to say "hold on I will write it donw for next time" like most of us have to do.

Aome things are hard, but as adults we have to find some way to sort it.
Lower distractions, write things down, put alarms on, move things around to help.
That's on us, not everyone around us. We can't just shrug shoulders and have others deal with baisc life (unless you make enough to afford all the staff)

grocery shopping is a regular established task that I have a routine for, much like the routines and structure of being at work. It’s familiar and safe, I know what I’m doing. But ask me to follow someone else’s instructions or do a task I’m not used to and I’m not as efficient, especially if its unexpected. That doesn’t mean I can’t do it, I just might get some bits wrong and then feel like a massive sack of shit.

this was posted by someone with a diagnosis of ADHD. But - with respect - it could be true of literally millions of people, especially those of us with high standards and low confidence.

I don't know if I have ADHD. Possibly. Used to be chaotic and disorganised, impulsive, said bad stuff out loud, panicked a lot about tasks 'sprung' on me, cocked up exams, couldn't budget, hated any 'failure' whilst consistently repeating patterns that invariably led to underperformance. Realised that life would improve if I were more organised, and got stuff done. Found systems to do so (lists with very specific tasks that added up to getting quite a bit done, diaries, spreadsheets, budgets, Pomodoro, setting timetables for things that needed to be done, whether that is making Christmas dinner for 12 or completing an A level paper within time), and habits that supported those systems - don't drink, get plenty of sleep, don't socialise very much, lower expectations of myself, have routines, get out of the house to go to specific quiet workspaces with a pre-prepared list of tasks to be done.

I got this stuff from books, and blogs, and podcasts - and OP, your husband can too, if he's motivated.

So he does notice.
Funny how these men don't notice until it suits them and then they do.

Of course they notice.
Stop doing anything that is to their benefit and they notice right away.

This weaponized incompetence is another big fucking scam men have been dumping on women for years.

All this guy is doing is playing the long game until she gets sick of it and goes back to doing it all herself.

Men who do this are not good guys.

"Of course they notice.
Stop doing anything that is to their benefit and they notice right away.

This weaponized incompetence is another big fucking scam men have been dumping on women for years.

All this guy is doing is playing the long game until she gets sick of it and goes back to doing it all herself.

Men who do this are not good guys."

Correct

So he does notice.

This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. People with ADHD do notice, absolutely we do, and we also feel like a sack of shit for not doing better at tidying or whatever. And the years of being called stupid and lazy echo round our heads and is repeated by ableist people like you.

Interesting @Onnabugeisha that you think you get to speak for @emptythelitterbox who has ADHD and disagrees with you.

Could that be because you're projecting whereas she's just refusing to insult ND people everywhere by allowing others to use their disabilities as an excuse for lazy fuckers?

No, I don’t, as I said earlier there is no one ADHD. There is also no one size fits all system that works for everyone with ADHD. And I’m not insulting people with ADHD at all. I’ve never once said we cannot learn…in fact I’ve been defending the ableist narrative that ADHD apparently doesn’t affect women, and if you can have a good career, you can’t possibly have ADHD.

What is really interesting is you accuse me of projecting but not other posters with ADHD. Almost like you are cherry picking evidence to fit your narrative that the OPs DH must be a lazy fucker?

All I have said over and over is that ADHD is a possibility and there are tools and systems that OP and her DH could research and try to see if it would help.

You on the other hand are so psychic and omniscient that you think it is literally impossible for the DH to be anything other than a lazy fucker using strategic incompetence.

He might be, but there are so many symptoms of ADHD I think it is worth him getting assessed and worth him and the OP trying some techniques.