Page 10 | WIBU to get involved with schools disciplinary process?

throwawayname00 · 2023-01-05T09:25:40+00:00

Long story short. Last term in my DS8 and a bunch of boys in his class were involved in some bullying of another child. it was reported and dealt with by the school. Parents were called, kids were talked to and for the rest of that school term the 'bullying' boys were not allowed to play together. I personally felt that was a bit OTT but went with it. We've gone back to school this term and DS has come home saying he still isn't allowed to play with the other boys, they are all being kept apart during class times, lunch times and play times. And this was announced to them all by the teacher in front of the whole class with her saying "XYZ, you still aren't allowed to play together because I still can't trust you" I'm intending to speak to the teacher at pick up or maybe just email the school directly. I feel this has been dragged from one term into another by the teacher, i feel they were spoken to by teachers, head teacher and parents. They were kept apart for 2/3 weeks last term and it could have been left there. And calling them out like that in front of their peer group is awful IMO. I want to use this thread to check myself before I go in guns blazing. WIBU to step in at this point?

PrayingandHoping · 05/01/2023 19:01

Ah gotcha

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 19:14

OP, you’re likely to not get reasonable answers on this topic here. I’m sure that nothing short of a “B” tattoo on the forehead of an 8 YO would satisfy some.

I’m with you though. For awhile in my younger days I taught at an after school program. One day I had about 8 boys of ages 5 to 8 that had gotten into a similar situation as you described. Since they all contributed to the situation (as far as I could tell) my solution was they all had to write letters to their parents describing their actions (not anyone else’s). What I failed to remember at the time was that the youngest ones really didn’t have the writing skills to pull this off (oops!) So I had to amend my ‘sit quietly and work alone’ punishment to a new plan of ‘Ok, the older boys need to help the younger boys’.

Results…

they all had to fess up to what they did wrong without blaming others
their parents were informed
they were giggling and working together by the end of the letters
I even heard some disagreements being worked out between them. ‘I only hit you because your bag hit me in the face’ ‘my bag went in your face because I fell over when I tripped when Steve pulled my coat’ ‘oh’ ‘oh’ ‘sorry’ ‘yeah me too’

So unless there was more than this one instance, yeah I think sustained punishment is too much.

OopzIDidItAgain · 05/01/2023 19:27

So unless there was more than this one instance
There is more than one incident listed by the op.
And that's just the ones they admitted to.

PAFMO · 05/01/2023 19:47

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 19:14

OP, you’re likely to not get reasonable answers on this topic here. I’m sure that nothing short of a “B” tattoo on the forehead of an 8 YO would satisfy some.

I’m with you though. For awhile in my younger days I taught at an after school program. One day I had about 8 boys of ages 5 to 8 that had gotten into a similar situation as you described. Since they all contributed to the situation (as far as I could tell) my solution was they all had to write letters to their parents describing their actions (not anyone else’s). What I failed to remember at the time was that the youngest ones really didn’t have the writing skills to pull this off (oops!) So I had to amend my ‘sit quietly and work alone’ punishment to a new plan of ‘Ok, the older boys need to help the younger boys’.

Results…

they all had to fess up to what they did wrong without blaming others
their parents were informed
they were giggling and working together by the end of the letters
I even heard some disagreements being worked out between them. ‘I only hit you because your bag hit me in the face’ ‘my bag went in your face because I fell over when I tripped when Steve pulled my coat’ ‘oh’ ‘oh’ ‘sorry’ ‘yeah me too’

So unless there was more than this one instance, yeah I think sustained punishment is too much.

That may be how you deal with boisterous behaviour in your after school program.
Here it's a state school in the UK which has a bullying code of practice. A written one. Which is available for staff and parents to see.
So your cutesy anecdote is irrelevant.

MichelleScarn · 05/01/2023 19:54

DrMarciaFieldstone · 05/01/2023 17:30

Yes this. DFriend’s child was involved in bullying one child with another child. She nipped it in the bud with punishment at home to match school, but also asked school to keep her DC away from the second bully. The second bully’s parent had minimised the issues and didn’t give her DC any consequences. DF didn’t want her DC to continue this friendship, and the school were supportive of this.

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And this is good parenting. What I wonder would be the process if the other boys parents agree with school and also don't want the boys playing together again even if school said was ok? Would that be seen as bullying?

toomuchlaundry · 05/01/2023 19:59

@saltinesandcoffeecups there was more than one incident and this was a group of boys targeting another boy. Not sure that boy would be too happy writing letters to the bullies

Mummatron3000 · 05/01/2023 20:05

You do realise the long lasting effects of being bullied, right? And you’re annoyed that your son isn’t allowed to get back together with his fellow bullies after only a few weeks? I think you seriously need to reassess your take on this. Your child was identified by the school as a bully, maybe you should take some responsibility for that.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 20:06

toomuchlaundry · 05/01/2023 19:59

@saltinesandcoffeecups there was more than one incident and this was a group of boys targeting another boy. Not sure that boy would be too happy writing letters to the bullies

I think you misread my post. They wrote letters to their parents.

toomuchlaundry · 05/01/2023 20:11

So why should the child who was bullied be made to write a letter to their parents, what is he meant to say, sorry I got bullied, sorry they took away my coat @saltinesandcoffeecups

AhoyMaBuoy · 05/01/2023 20:12

@saltinesandcoffeecups how lovely that the bullies ended up giggling,did you all clap & cheer at the end ? High five? what about the victim though ?
I hope to God you no longer work with children

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 20:13

I am curious, how long should the boys be punished? Clearly 2-3 weeks is not long enough for some. 2-3 months? A year? Longer? Should they never be allowed to play together?

I ask because this is essentially a loss of privilege punishment… and it’s typically recommended that use of this type of punishment be reasonable including having a clear timeline.

GentlyBen · 05/01/2023 20:15

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 19:14

OP, you’re likely to not get reasonable answers on this topic here. I’m sure that nothing short of a “B” tattoo on the forehead of an 8 YO would satisfy some.

I’m with you though. For awhile in my younger days I taught at an after school program. One day I had about 8 boys of ages 5 to 8 that had gotten into a similar situation as you described. Since they all contributed to the situation (as far as I could tell) my solution was they all had to write letters to their parents describing their actions (not anyone else’s). What I failed to remember at the time was that the youngest ones really didn’t have the writing skills to pull this off (oops!) So I had to amend my ‘sit quietly and work alone’ punishment to a new plan of ‘Ok, the older boys need to help the younger boys’.

Results…

they all had to fess up to what they did wrong without blaming others
their parents were informed
they were giggling and working together by the end of the letters
I even heard some disagreements being worked out between them. ‘I only hit you because your bag hit me in the face’ ‘my bag went in your face because I fell over when I tripped when Steve pulled my coat’ ‘oh’ ‘oh’ ‘sorry’ ‘yeah me too’

So unless there was more than this one instance, yeah I think sustained punishment is too much.

And this is why teachers are trained and qualified to deal with bullying so that it isn’t dealt with like this.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 20:18

AhoyMaBuoy · 05/01/2023 20:12

@saltinesandcoffeecups how lovely that the bullies ended up giggling,did you all clap & cheer at the end ? High five? what about the victim though ?
I hope to God you no longer work with children

Once again I don’t think you read my post very closely…they were all involved in the situation.

I mean I get it, clearly some of you don’t like my method… but it clearly worked since there weren’t any problems after.

Perhaps I should have separated them and not allowed them to work through the problem and become friends again? The parents who came in while they were working together thought it was a good idea and saw the results, as well as the ones I talked later that night, so you’ll forgive me for thinking that I solved the issue appropriately for those involved.

BedfordBloo · 05/01/2023 20:22

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 20:13

I am curious, how long should the boys be punished? Clearly 2-3 weeks is not long enough for some. 2-3 months? A year? Longer? Should they never be allowed to play together?

I ask because this is essentially a loss of privilege punishment… and it’s typically recommended that use of this type of punishment be reasonable including having a clear timeline.

It’s not a punishment. They’re being separated to prevent them bullying another child and it will continue until their behaviour independently is such that the teacher can trust them together.

Discipline in schools has four purposes:

to protect pupils from harm
to deter others from doing that behaviour
to punish bad behaviour
to teach pupils right from wrong

Even if points 3 and 4 have been achieved, point 1 alone is sufficient to continue keeping the boys apart from one another. The teacher has said that he still can’t be trusted, undoubtedly that’s because he’s not behaving any better than he was (or not well enough). In their professional opinion, the bullied child would not be safe from bullying if the bullies were allowed to play together again at this time.

If your child had a habit of accidentally cutting other people when they used scissors then you’d stop them using scissors - it’s not a punishment because their behaviour was accidental but you’re doing it to protect others.

AhoyMaBuoy · 05/01/2023 20:25

There weren't any problems after - that you were aware of
You have failed to recognise this situation though @saltinesandcoffeecups , you are too busy trying to blow your own trumpet at something that has no relevance

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 20:41

AhoyMaBuoy · 05/01/2023 20:25

There weren't any problems after - that you were aware of
You have failed to recognise this situation though @saltinesandcoffeecups , you are too busy trying to blow your own trumpet at something that has no relevance

None of the kids, nor parents reported an incident, the school didn’t report anything (and we did share information), the bus driver told me he hadn’t seen any additional problems, and none of the other teachers observed anything.

I mean, sure it could have continued but there was nothing to indicate it did.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 20:56

BedfordBloo · 05/01/2023 20:22

It’s not a punishment. They’re being separated to prevent them bullying another child and it will continue until their behaviour independently is such that the teacher can trust them together.

Discipline in schools has four purposes:

to protect pupils from harm
to deter others from doing that behaviour
to punish bad behaviour
to teach pupils right from wrong

Even if points 3 and 4 have been achieved, point 1 alone is sufficient to continue keeping the boys apart from one another. The teacher has said that he still can’t be trusted, undoubtedly that’s because he’s not behaving any better than he was (or not well enough). In their professional opinion, the bullied child would not be safe from bullying if the bullies were allowed to play together again at this time.

If your child had a habit of accidentally cutting other people when they used scissors then you’d stop them using scissors - it’s not a punishment because their behaviour was accidental but you’re doing it to protect others.

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That’s an interesting take.

2-4 though would follow the same principles as any other punishment though, no? And still need to reasonable? I’m not sure about your statement about the teacher not seeing improvement though.

If the behavior has continued as individuals I would expect the mother to be notified.

If there hasn’t been a reoccurrence then how do you that the children can’t be trusted if not given a chance?

I obviously have no horse in this race… I swear I’m not one of the kid’s aunties. I just find it fascinating that the same group here that generally lean towards learning based punishments and discipline, but when it comes to a bully pull out the tar and feathers.

See responses to the situation I described, If the initial infraction would have been anything else then I’m sure it would have been perceived as effective discipline. But if there’s a hint about bullying nothing short of permanent exclusion would be acceptable.

AhoyMaBuoy · 05/01/2023 20:57

Regardless @saltinesandcoffeecups , that's a wishy washy way to deal with bullying
You have no idea whether they gave up on you , you just appear to be self promoting and dismissing the long term effect of bullying
You wadded in and sorted it by getting them to write some letters , how many sessions??

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 21:02

AhoyMaBuoy · 05/01/2023 20:57

Regardless @saltinesandcoffeecups , that's a wishy washy way to deal with bullying
You have no idea whether they gave up on you , you just appear to be self promoting and dismissing the long term effect of bullying
You wadded in and sorted it by getting them to write some letters , how many sessions??

Ok I clearly suck in your opinion. Got it…

BedfordBloo · 05/01/2023 21:03

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 20:56

That’s an interesting take.

2-4 though would follow the same principles as any other punishment though, no? And still need to reasonable? I’m not sure about your statement about the teacher not seeing improvement though.

If the behavior has continued as individuals I would expect the mother to be notified.

If there hasn’t been a reoccurrence then how do you that the children can’t be trusted if not given a chance?

I obviously have no horse in this race… I swear I’m not one of the kid’s aunties. I just find it fascinating that the same group here that generally lean towards learning based punishments and discipline, but when it comes to a bully pull out the tar and feathers.

See responses to the situation I described, If the initial infraction would have been anything else then I’m sure it would have been perceived as effective discipline. But if there’s a hint about bullying nothing short of permanent exclusion would be acceptable.

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I don’t know that there won’t be a reoccurrence and neither do you. Neither of us are there. What we do know is that the professional who is monitoring the situation made a judgement call based on what they’re witnessing. In the absence of any indication that their professional judgement is wrong, I’m going to assume they’re basing it on something. Keeping the boys apart is effort for them, they won’t be making work for themselves for no reason.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 21:22

BedfordBloo · 05/01/2023 21:03

I don’t know that there won’t be a reoccurrence and neither do you. Neither of us are there. What we do know is that the professional who is monitoring the situation made a judgement call based on what they’re witnessing. In the absence of any indication that their professional judgement is wrong, I’m going to assume they’re basing it on something. Keeping the boys apart is effort for them, they won’t be making work for themselves for no reason.

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Which is a fair statement, but it doesn’t sound like the kids or the parents have been given guidance on what the teacher is looking for. Which brings us to the OP’s original complaint about the situation.

It’s not fair (or recommended) to have open ended punishments.

If we can agree that it’s not effective to tell a child that they are grounded until the do better. (Better at what..dishes, grades, something else?) Then surely it’s not effective to tell a child you can’t play with your friends until I trust you (trust I will or won’t do what?).

From the comments I picked out from the OP, she’s behind the school dealing with this and has supported it, but is questioning what comes next. If an adult is confused as to what behavior her son needs to demonstrate, then how are the kids supposed to know?

Letthekidsplay · 05/01/2023 21:25

I think it’s great to see a school actually address bullying and take it seriously. I wouldn’t want my child playing with children who brought out that dude in him either. But great for your son but calling them out in public let’s the others know bullying won’t be tolerated.

BedfordBloo · 05/01/2023 21:29

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 21:22

Which is a fair statement, but it doesn’t sound like the kids or the parents have been given guidance on what the teacher is looking for. Which brings us to the OP’s original complaint about the situation.

It’s not fair (or recommended) to have open ended punishments.

If we can agree that it’s not effective to tell a child that they are grounded until the do better. (Better at what..dishes, grades, something else?) Then surely it’s not effective to tell a child you can’t play with your friends until I trust you (trust I will or won’t do what?).

From the comments I picked out from the OP, she’s behind the school dealing with this and has supported it, but is questioning what comes next. If an adult is confused as to what behavior her son needs to demonstrate, then how are the kids supposed to know?

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It’s not an open ended punishment, it’s not a punishment. And the teacher has said that it will end when she can trust them to be together.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 21:37

BedfordBloo · 05/01/2023 21:29

It’s not an open ended punishment, it’s not a punishment. And the teacher has said that it will end when she can trust them to be together.

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You can call it whatever you want. In a kid’s mind, being separated from their friends as a result of getting in trouble is a punishment.

BedfordBloo · 05/01/2023 21:40

saltinesandcoffeecups · 05/01/2023 21:37

You can call it whatever you want. In a kid’s mind, being separated from their friends as a result of getting in trouble is a punishment.

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So? If a kid in the class has broken their leg, they won’t be allowed to play football at break time. They might view that as a punishment, doesn’t make it so and doesn’t make it unfair to not let them play football.