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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The posters who always say "Well, what was he like before kids?"

148 replies

PineappleSheep · 03/01/2023 05:47

When an exhausted woman with a crappy husband posts for support and somebody immediately fires the "Well, what was he like before kids?"- immediately dismissing the poster's feelings (probably in the same way her husband does) and implying that she has chosen this path and her crappy husband is somehow her fault.

After being up every night this week with a poorly toddler and being unable to fall back to sleep while my shite husband snores away I'm in moany rant mode

In those first few years of a relationship before children you are just the tidier person. That's it. This is no big deal since your daily burden of responsibility is low anyway. I never felt resentful in the first few years of my relationship. I didn't mind being the main organiser and tidier. It wasn't a problem. I was younger, more positive and less worn down. I had plenty of free time and enjoyed keeping my home clean and tidy.

I never had exposure to the realities of having children, especially young children, since none of my friends or family had them. I was the first of my friends to have children.

During pregnancy I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow to suit the responsibilities of being a parent, as I also would. We both had some growing up to do and I naively assumed that we would both change for the better. I never doubted for second that he wouldn't do this. He was a very mature, sensible and stable person, why wouldn't he be a good parent?

However, once we had a baby it became clear very quickly that I was wrong. I felt blindsided and betrayed by his lack of support in the first year of our child's life. It was all far too much effort for him, despite saying all the right things prior to having a baby. Several years later and the lack of support has caused an absolutely enormous amount of resentment on my side. It's a slow process of repeated let downs and refusals of support that have completely killed any love or desire I had for him. This in turn has pulled us further apart, leading to more and more withdrawal from him. I no longer recognise the man I fell in love with, nor do I bother asking for support anymore. It's not worth the hassle.

Had I known that this would be my experience of having children I would have never had them with him. It is not the life I imagined and it's incredibly lonely. My child is my favourite person and has enhanced my life immeasurably but I will forever feel a sense of guilt and responsibility for lumbering them with a crappy father. I wish for them that he was better, because they deserve it.

I often see posters suggest that women like me see a man, realise how crap he is at cleaning and have kids anyway, simply because we selfishly wanted a baby. As if we have deliberately chosen this path to parenthood. The (simplified) reality is that I feel completely let down and had I known that the amount of hoovering my husband did in the early days of our relationship was an indicator of what's to come, it would never have been like this. I now realise just how important it was and would never maintain a relationship with somebody who didn't pull their weight. Hindsight would have been wonderful.

I am slowly (and finally) putting plans to leave in place, to give my child and I the opportunity for a better and happier life. I have tried to fight for them to have an actively involved father for years, but it is clear that parenthood was too much to ask for my husband. My toddler recently didn't notice that my husband was away for a week and my heart breaks for them. I know that we need to leave. However, leaving feels like an incredibly selfish thing to do too. It's so hard for women trapped in this position to make the decision to leave. We've often been fighting for years for our children to have the stereotypically 'perfect' family life and giving up/realising it's futile is so so hard.

I'll stop waffling now

OP posts:
NoSquirrels · 03/01/2023 06:05

I’m sorry you’re having to consider leaving - it is very tough to feel so unsupported. I totally get it. A lot of what you say rings very true about the beginning of relationships and how you assume things will evolve, not devolve. And how exponentially your responsibilities increase - domestically and all round - after having DC.

The (simplified) reality is that I feel completely let down and had I known that the amount of hoovering my husband did in the early days of our relationship was an indicator of what's to come, it would never have been like this. I now realise just how important it was and would never maintain a relationship with somebody who didn't pull their weight. Hindsight would have been wonderful.

I’m* *going to bang this drum so hard for my children to hear. I’d like them to not need hindsight. I’m going to impress on them the importance of an equal partner who is equal in all ways; how vital it is for happiness.

My DH has improved an awful lot over the years, so if you want some hope that it gets easier it’s out there. But it’s a combination of the DC being older and him better at what they need at these stages, a lot of communication (respectful and otherwise! some more successful than others), and a bit of me adjusting/accepting what I do have and can tolerate rather than resenting that he’s not selfless domestically. My DH has always listened and agreed I’m right to be mad about the imbalance, and even when progress has been slow there’s been progress so I’ve never felt he was taking me for granted - that’s a personal decision you’ll have to make, of course.

OlympicProcrastinator · 03/01/2023 06:10

Agree OP. My first husband was wonderful. Until he wasn’t. As soon as we had our child he needed me to behave as his mother as well as our child. He couldn’t do a damn thing without me explaining how to do it and when I was Ill he got angry because he couldn’t cope. None of that was apparent until we had the added responsibility of a baby. He just couldn’t cope with the extra work, saw me step up and tried to ride on my coat tails.

I ended that marriage fairly quickly after realising and really enjoyed the years of single parenthood. I felt I had so much more freedom and less responsibility as I wasn’t shouldering the extra burden of an adult that couldn’t pull his weight.

I have been happily remarried for 10 years now.

OlympicProcrastinator · 03/01/2023 06:12

Sorry that should have said, “he needed me to act as his mother in addition to our child also needing a mother”

Whydoievenbother · 03/01/2023 06:13

I posted something similar yesterday (I found all the replies very useful), I feel it all slowly creeps up on you and then you only realise it looking back

SpongeBobJudgeyPants · 03/01/2023 06:14

Yes, you are right. We have no idea what he would be like after a child, as we didn't actually have a child to see into the future. I think it's the hard of thinking who spout this shit.

SpongeBobJudgeyPants · 03/01/2023 06:15

He, as in husband/partner. Too early for me to communicate properly without coffee.

Hillrunning · 03/01/2023 06:17

I think people often reply to a post with a response that isn't so much for the OP specifically but rather to 'the room'. I'd say the 'what was he like before' comments are that. Said as a cautionary statement that might make more women think very carefully and make the connections that you admit to missing yourself. They feel it is a way to prevent other women feeling like you do, that you did make a mistake by not seeing how his flaws would translate post children. Its perhaps not always appropriate as the OP may feel they are being kicked when already down. It's good that you see it now and can change your life and instill this in your children

WandaWonder · 03/01/2023 06:25

Having one child I get but I will never get 'my husband is useless and does not help with our 5 kids he just sits around all day and doesn't work and I have 3 jobs, what should I do' then people say leave him then the op goes but i want another baby

No the women is not to blame for him but of she stays then don't whinge about it

Yes I would call that being a martyr

And also showing the kids it's OK to be treated that way

autienotnaughty · 03/01/2023 06:28

My first husband was awful and due to growing up in a abusive household I didn't see it. My second husband is lovely but I fell into a similar trap as you, I did most of housework particularly because I had two kids and worked from home. When we had our son I naively assumed he would step up and he didn't, he has improved over years and I also reduced my work as a way to compensate and also because ds has Sen. So I get free time in day to do homework and rest. Which means there's less to do in the evenings/weekends so it's easier. We then got a dog and again my husband has struggled with extra responsibilities. I love him but I wouldn't have another child with him (or dog)

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 03/01/2023 06:29

WandaWonder · 03/01/2023 06:25

Having one child I get but I will never get 'my husband is useless and does not help with our 5 kids he just sits around all day and doesn't work and I have 3 jobs, what should I do' then people say leave him then the op goes but i want another baby

No the women is not to blame for him but of she stays then don't whinge about it

Yes I would call that being a martyr

And also showing the kids it's OK to be treated that way

Agree. Though even having one child with such men doesn't rouse my sympathies. "Assuming " they will shape up and magically become responsible is a foolish choice.

Cellotapedispenser · 03/01/2023 06:29

OP that was a beautifully written and well explained post. I am in exactly the same situation. The part about never asking for help is particularly accurate. And it's so true that prior to kids housework is almost a little hobby compared to when DC exist. Everything is my responsibility from waking in the night, getting up early with the DC, the laundry, the meal planning, the shopping, the cooking, the cleaning, organising xmas and birthday...whilst he sits and scrolls. I work ft as well. We've had so many rows about it, I just can't be bothered anymore.

WandaWonder · 03/01/2023 06:35

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 03/01/2023 06:29

Agree. Though even having one child with such men doesn't rouse my sympathies. "Assuming " they will shape up and magically become responsible is a foolish choice.

Or 'we have been having lots of fights and not getting along but I am TTC as it will bring us closer together but now I am feeling stressed and my family won't support us but I want to get married'

Then 99% of posters say 'do not have a baby with him' one poster says 'it's OK he will be fine once the baby is born'

Then the Op thanks that poster then once the baby is born and the big wedding comes back to complain again

Pacmangarlic · 03/01/2023 06:36

I really agree with what you have written and it mirrors my own thoughts and experiences.

My child is now 6 with Sen and I can't see a way I can leave. My career is over due to my child not being able to attend school for longr than an hour per day. Looking back I should have left when my child was a toddler. Now I'm stuck

Ragwort · 03/01/2023 06:39

It's not a popular comment but I do think a lot of men probably aren't that bothered if they have DC or not but just go along with their wife's decision. In our case it was definitely my DH who wanted a child much more than me and yes ... I did 'observe' his behaviour before agreeing to have a baby. It sounds cold and clinical but I was aware that he already spent a lot of time volunteering with DC, frequently (& I include overnight visits etc) cared for his nephews & nieces, had his own home before we got together so was fully competent at cooking, housework, DIY etc.

And I then agreed to have a DC (& only one); I am not trying to sound smug or that everything in our marriage is perfect but at least he is a fully competent adult who takes full responsibility for his DC and home.

Like others, I just don't understand why women go on to have a second or third DC with a useless father .... and when challenged on it the usual reply is 'I wanted a family .... or 'contraception failure'. Hmm.

isthistheendtakeabreath · 03/01/2023 06:45

I agree OP there were no warning signs at all my soon to be ex husband wouldn't turn out too be a decent father; and he was whilst our eldest was young. Wasn't until we had our twins (very much planned after lots of IVF) that he decided he didn't like family life - he detached almost overnight from us and walked out within the year. Seems like he was a good father to one child but a terrible father to 3 children. He didn't like the noise and the chaos and the relentlessness of our new life. Seems like he enjoyed our eldest when she was little and cute and more "portable" - as soon as she was older and had hobbies and clubs which meant he had to give time up and this coincided with the twins arrival that things fell apart.

Now he's gone my family say oh well we always knew he was useless - but did they?? Just because he wasn't the main earner doesn't mean you aren't an equal partner in other ways. We renovated a house together, were together nearly 20 years, I think the difference is that motherhood changed me for the better whereas fatherhood changed him for the worse and you can't predict that until you actually have children

blubberball · 03/01/2023 06:46

Yep, I truly thought that my ex would step up with me to being a parent. He never did. I'm so much happier as a single parent, without him around the house stinking up the place with his moods and atmospheres. I now only clean up my own mess, and the kid's. I don't have to worry about him and his mess any more.

I'm in a relationship now, and he couldn't be more different than my ex. He's hard working, mature, sensible, caring, clean and tidy. We live separately, and his home is always immaculate. I want us to live together one day, but this works extremely well for us whilst my dc are growing up

BiasedBinding · 03/01/2023 06:47

the Vast majority of women change their behaviour through motherhood. Of course you do, it’s impossible to have the routine and priorities that you did before, completely unchanged. It’s not unreasonable to assume a man would too. The fact that they don’t is on them, not on women.

Fourwallsclosingin · 03/01/2023 06:55

I remember this really funny joke (or so I thought it was funny when I was quite young). A woman gets married, hoping the man will change; a man gets married hoping the woman won't. I didn't realise until after DC just how truthful that joke was, and sadly not very funny at all!
I think usually both people change anyway, and the arrival of DC magnifies that and it can either make you or break you.
I have been truly shocked just how much DC has completely changed the dynamic of my relationship - for the worse. I honestly couldn't not have imagined the situation I am in, OP could not have written her post any better for me

Boystomenslowdanceatweddings · 03/01/2023 06:57

It makes me wonder if we are designed to live in family groups or more like some animals in the wild.

Shoxfordian · 03/01/2023 06:58

Women generally start changing their behaviours when they’re pregnant- no alcohol, eating different food etc. whereas most men seem to drift along until they realise the baby is born and they have to start stepping up.

Tbh, if he doesn’t do housework before then he won’t magically start doing it after- it is naive to assume he’ll change just because you’re changing your thoughts after having a baby. In your op; you acknowledge you did the majority of the housework before - not clear why when you both live there- but expected this to change.

Its not necessarily that helpful to say how was he before you had a baby because hindsight isn’t going to fix things but it is helpful to other posters who may not have had a baby yet but do have a lazy partner: plenty of cautionary tales on mumsnet

My2pence2day · 03/01/2023 07:02

Boystomenslowdanceatweddings · 03/01/2023 06:57

It makes me wonder if we are designed to live in family groups or more like some animals in the wild.

That's so interesting, I have often wondered that myself. Or how in some cultures where they have generations living in the same house (sounds hideous as I am from a culture like this, but I can see the benefits). I was also terrified to co-sleep, and remember talking about it with DH about how in cave man times, or even some cultures now where they used to or still communally live in villages and sleep in a large room (think Africa) where co-sleeping would be perfectly safe as someone would be awake. It does make me wonder about how we used to live vs. how we live now

PriOn1 · 03/01/2023 07:02

Like others, I just don't understand why women go on to have a second or third DC with a useless father .... and when challenged on it the usual reply is 'I wanted a family .... or 'contraception failure'.

I had a second and third child with my abusive husband. He wasn’t as awful as some, but did avoid childcare with our first and selfishly lay in at weekends as he could ignore the baby crying when I couldn’t and various other stuff. I didn’t like his behaviour, but believed he was depressed, which I think he probably was. He was better with our second child so it didn’t seem so bad. It took me a long while to realise he treated them differently and that, in essence, we had a golden child and a scapegoat. I had no idea that was a thing.

When I was living in it, it had become so normalised I didn’t really see it for what it was. Our marriage wasn’t great, but it wasn’t absolutely awful and I always hoped it would get better: that I would find the right thing to say or do that would turn it around and he would learn to love our son better.

Indeed, looking back, it’s possible that if we’d never had children, that I could have been pretty happy with him. We went away alone together now and then, and generally it was lovely. I eventually left because I could see I had to for the children, but still regret the good parts.

My experience was that it was a very slow descent, with moments when perhaps it could have been saved, had I stood up to him better. But I was a new mum and didn’t have the strength and sometimes took what looked like the easier path. He was the golden child in his family, so presumably for him that path was effortless, whereas recognizing it and standing up to him wasn’t effortless to me.

And underlying it all, being married and having a family and growing old with someone was how I expected life to go. Despite the imperfections, I kept on pushing forwards because I believed a stable marriage was better for the children and I was blind to the fact that an unhappy marriage, even if it seems reasonably stable because one partner is giving way more than the other is not good for children as it’s setting a terrible example.

So there it is. Misconceptions about how life should be and about what was best for my children were at the bottom of me staying so long. I only saw how much it was damaging my children as they started to grow up and I could see destructive behaviour patterns beginning to emerge in the eldest, scapegoated child.

I wish I had left years earlier, but there it is. I did what I thought was best at the time.

disgustingtaste · 03/01/2023 07:06

I completely agree with your post. I think you have explained it so well.
I hope you manage to leave Flowers

LolaSmiles · 03/01/2023 07:07

Some men completely change during pregnancy or after the baby arrives. They go from being nice partners who do their fair share of domestic duties to overgrown man-children.

Some men are full of red flags and women tolerate it and still settle down, especially if they're caught in an abusive relationship or have low expectations of what they deserve.

Some men show they're lazy/can't be bothered with housework, and openly watch their partner run the house. Unfortunately some of these women seem to think a baby will change the man, that he'll suddenly grow up and do his fair share around the house. This is naive and the signs were there. He's shown his partner exactly what he is like, but she's ignored it.

There's not much that can be done about the first group, but we really do need to teach our daughters what healthy and equal relationships look like, encourage them to expect more, and tell them if a man doesn't do his domestic share before a child then having a baby won't change him.

PriOn1 · 03/01/2023 07:11

One more thing I thought of is that once you are ground down and struggling, the enormous effort it takes to move out (or get him to move out) is another weight that becomes almost impossible to face. I saw someone else upthread say they cut down their work to even up the fact that he wasn’t helping at home, and I did the same, but that was another trap. Once you are financially dependent, the effort required to leave, the life you can afford for your children and the risk of his being awarded custody as he can afford to support them are all against you. The traps that are woven by these men can be incredibly complex.

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