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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The posters who always say "Well, what was he like before kids?"

148 replies

PineappleSheep · 03/01/2023 05:47

When an exhausted woman with a crappy husband posts for support and somebody immediately fires the "Well, what was he like before kids?"- immediately dismissing the poster's feelings (probably in the same way her husband does) and implying that she has chosen this path and her crappy husband is somehow her fault.

After being up every night this week with a poorly toddler and being unable to fall back to sleep while my shite husband snores away I'm in moany rant mode

In those first few years of a relationship before children you are just the tidier person. That's it. This is no big deal since your daily burden of responsibility is low anyway. I never felt resentful in the first few years of my relationship. I didn't mind being the main organiser and tidier. It wasn't a problem. I was younger, more positive and less worn down. I had plenty of free time and enjoyed keeping my home clean and tidy.

I never had exposure to the realities of having children, especially young children, since none of my friends or family had them. I was the first of my friends to have children.

During pregnancy I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow to suit the responsibilities of being a parent, as I also would. We both had some growing up to do and I naively assumed that we would both change for the better. I never doubted for second that he wouldn't do this. He was a very mature, sensible and stable person, why wouldn't he be a good parent?

However, once we had a baby it became clear very quickly that I was wrong. I felt blindsided and betrayed by his lack of support in the first year of our child's life. It was all far too much effort for him, despite saying all the right things prior to having a baby. Several years later and the lack of support has caused an absolutely enormous amount of resentment on my side. It's a slow process of repeated let downs and refusals of support that have completely killed any love or desire I had for him. This in turn has pulled us further apart, leading to more and more withdrawal from him. I no longer recognise the man I fell in love with, nor do I bother asking for support anymore. It's not worth the hassle.

Had I known that this would be my experience of having children I would have never had them with him. It is not the life I imagined and it's incredibly lonely. My child is my favourite person and has enhanced my life immeasurably but I will forever feel a sense of guilt and responsibility for lumbering them with a crappy father. I wish for them that he was better, because they deserve it.

I often see posters suggest that women like me see a man, realise how crap he is at cleaning and have kids anyway, simply because we selfishly wanted a baby. As if we have deliberately chosen this path to parenthood. The (simplified) reality is that I feel completely let down and had I known that the amount of hoovering my husband did in the early days of our relationship was an indicator of what's to come, it would never have been like this. I now realise just how important it was and would never maintain a relationship with somebody who didn't pull their weight. Hindsight would have been wonderful.

I am slowly (and finally) putting plans to leave in place, to give my child and I the opportunity for a better and happier life. I have tried to fight for them to have an actively involved father for years, but it is clear that parenthood was too much to ask for my husband. My toddler recently didn't notice that my husband was away for a week and my heart breaks for them. I know that we need to leave. However, leaving feels like an incredibly selfish thing to do too. It's so hard for women trapped in this position to make the decision to leave. We've often been fighting for years for our children to have the stereotypically 'perfect' family life and giving up/realising it's futile is so so hard.

I'll stop waffling now

OP posts:
Whydoievenbother · 03/01/2023 07:13

Shoxfordian · 03/01/2023 06:58

Women generally start changing their behaviours when they’re pregnant- no alcohol, eating different food etc. whereas most men seem to drift along until they realise the baby is born and they have to start stepping up.

Tbh, if he doesn’t do housework before then he won’t magically start doing it after- it is naive to assume he’ll change just because you’re changing your thoughts after having a baby. In your op; you acknowledge you did the majority of the housework before - not clear why when you both live there- but expected this to change.

Its not necessarily that helpful to say how was he before you had a baby because hindsight isn’t going to fix things but it is helpful to other posters who may not have had a baby yet but do have a lazy partner: plenty of cautionary tales on mumsnet

In my case, H probably did more housework. Then it slowly changed because I wfh, so I picked up more jobs and once DC arrived housework was now x10 so he continued to do his hour or two a week, where I now do hours each day.
So I don't think it's that simple, but yes I completely agree with you if your husband does nothing and never has then he's not going to magically change

EarringsandLipstick · 03/01/2023 07:17

I'm sorry you are experiencing this OP & I hope you can find a path through / out. It is very hard & lonely.

I can identify - I had 3 DC, close together with my abusive H (not that I understood he was abusive till after the marriage ended).

There were plenty of red flags, but due to my own self-esteem, the view I held of him (he was good fun, likeable, easy-going whereas I felt I was intense, difficult and found things hard), and total naïveté, I was able to ignore them all.

For me, having DC is the litmus test of a relationship. Even good relationships will be challenged, and both parents need to grow and change, and their relationship must evolve.

If you have a selfish disinterested H, not to mind abusive, it all comes into sharp relief.

Having been through hell, and 9 years on since he left, still having a difficult time, I'm strongly of the view that there are essential 'checks' that must be done, and certain conversations to have before marriage/ LTRs, and children.

DivorcingEU · 03/01/2023 07:20

I agree OP.

What gets me is that the way these men deal with the home and childcare is actually negligent. If both parents behaved the way these men do, someone would call social services (and rightly so).

It extends after divorce too when similar behaviour continues and these men see their kids every other weekend (their choice) and pay as little as possible maintenance (if they even do). And the mother takes the burden of basically everything.

This is a systemic problem. It's not a few cases here or there and it's not caused by women. Men are routinely neglecting their children with absolutely no consequences.

Ideally, there needs to be a concerted public campaign to highlight to men that they do have responsibilities beyond chipping in a bit here and there.

Similarly there should be a campaign telling women what having a baby with a man like this will mean to their lives. I'll be educating my son and daughter but this situation impacts basically every girl and her future. And yes, it could be their female partner too, but the overwhelming majority in this situation are women married/in a LTR with men.

Thepeopleversuswork · 03/01/2023 07:20

Boystomenslowdanceatweddings · 03/01/2023 06:57

It makes me wonder if we are designed to live in family groups or more like some animals in the wild.

I have thought a great deal about this and I don’t think the nuclear family is a good way to raise children at all.

Men basically hate this setup and go along with it very grudgingly on the basis that their OH becomes their mum. It’s a recipe for resentment, breakdown of intimacy and lack of trust.

Single parent families led by women are far happier family units. Most of my friends live like this. It’s so liberating bringing children up without the baggage of a man and his incompetence and laziness. And better for children to live with women who are not poisoned by the constant resentment of them for their inability to pull their weight.

I truly believe this is the optimal way to raise children. It’s only really money that women get from cohabitation with men. The rest is a lose lose.

NibbledSwitch · 03/01/2023 07:21

I am the daughter of one of these men.
I observed all the shit my mother put up with, all the imbalance of responsibility and heard all the rows it caused.

I decided that wasn't going to be my life so have remained child and man free.

BloaterW1 · 03/01/2023 07:22

Now he's gone my family say oh well we always knew he was useless - but did they?? Just because he wasn't the main earner doesn't mean you aren't an equal partner in other ways. We renovated a house together, were together nearly 20 years, I think the difference is that motherhood changed me for the better whereas fatherhood changed him for the worse and you can't predict that until you actually have children
They probably did but would you have listened ?

EarringsandLipstick · 03/01/2023 07:28

I just don't understand why women go on to have a second or third DC with a useless father

The problem is when you are in it, you often cannot see your options, or indeed how awful it is.

My H nearly destroyed me; he emotionally abused me for years & honestly nearly drove me mad (the tipping point for me was after one awful night actually standing there & thinking I had actually lost my mind ... that previous night he had spent so long belittling me, mocking me, laughing at me, and I had cried so much, that I fainted - it literally became too much, I was exhausted with a baby, toddler & small child, he had spent all our money again leaving us with nothing to live on, I just collapsed. He stepped over me & left me there. I didn't even think about ending it then, but I did get legal advice which was blunt & direct & that set me on the path to end it).

When it was all happening, I clung to a belief it could be better, that I could still have the family life I wanted it.

For years since I have felt enormous guilt that my DC haven't had the family life / parents they should have. They have now nothing to do with him (he treated them awfully) and they are fine, so that guilt has eased a bit.

I get irritated when I see this sentiment - if you are in the situation, it's often complex & hard to see what is really going on, and what options you have. No-one knew what I was dealing with. When I told my BF, she was dismissive - she thought my H was great, she thought I was exaggerating, and she herself has a lovely but fairly useless, practically, DH. Years later, most of my family don't get it - if you haven't experienced it, it's really hard to.

StollenAway · 03/01/2023 07:29

Thepeopleversuswork · 03/01/2023 07:20

I have thought a great deal about this and I don’t think the nuclear family is a good way to raise children at all.

Men basically hate this setup and go along with it very grudgingly on the basis that their OH becomes their mum. It’s a recipe for resentment, breakdown of intimacy and lack of trust.

Single parent families led by women are far happier family units. Most of my friends live like this. It’s so liberating bringing children up without the baggage of a man and his incompetence and laziness. And better for children to live with women who are not poisoned by the constant resentment of them for their inability to pull their weight.

I truly believe this is the optimal way to raise children. It’s only really money that women get from cohabitation with men. The rest is a lose lose.

Sorry but I had to pick this up. The nuclear family is a shit way to raise children IF the husband is useless and the wife is resentful. That is absolutely not the case in all nuclear families; it’s certainly not the case in mine now nor was it the case in mine growing up, nor is it the case in most of my friends’ families.

I agree with everything the OP has said but I also think people surround themselves with like people to a certain extent. Looking at my husband, my brother, my friends: I don’t see these incompetent males that are constantly paraded on MN. That said DS has recently made friends with a kid who does have a classic MAMIL Dad, and a Mum who does everything, and DH commented on how absurd their set up is before I did.

Thereisnoname · 03/01/2023 07:34

OP I could have written your post exactly, its so true.
Right down to be not noticing they're away, mine are older but only mentioned once about him not calling them when he was away for a week and that was only one, the other one wasn't bothered at all. But I only have to go out for the evening and they make a fuss and want to know what time I'll be home.

Make sure you get out sooner rather than later, I didn't and regretting it now as kids are old enough to notice everything and his dragging his heels and making it hard now I've made a stand.

EarringsandLipstick · 03/01/2023 07:34

@Thepeopleversuswork

I can't agree with this.

I am much happier as a single parent than in my abusive marriage. My ex has had limited involvement with his children, and now none - he tried his manipulative & coercive behaviour on them, and they weren't having it (11, 13, 15 now & I'm very proud of them).

However, I would prefer to be with a partner sharing bringing up children together; it is far easier - financially, practically & emotionally. I live in a very homogenous community where separation & divorce are not common.

And it is possible - in my life, I see it with siblings & friends. I do also see plenty of feckless eejits of fathers too, but there are good fathers actively bringing up their kids for sure.

Velda · 03/01/2023 07:41

There is no easy definition of what’s a red flag. My husband always did more housework and still does. It was fine when nobody was making a mess, it was tidy and he was happy. But now there are kids here and he shouts at us all the time for being untidy. Pre-kids I was pleased he was tidy - now I realise it was a red flag.

Equally he was fine when we both worked. But once a child arrived who had difficulties that prevented me from working, he got angry and started yelling at me about not working. Said child started school this year and now he’s settled enough for me to work at least part time, but I’m still resentful about my husband having yelled at me for the past five years. Again no red flag in advance, because I was working so I had no idea he’d be angry about me not working.

Runningintolife · 03/01/2023 07:44

Your post is very well written and I agree.

ArseMenagerie · 03/01/2023 07:47

You said a mouthful there OP. I so agree with you. Beautifully explained. Courage to you for the future. Me next….

RampantIvy · 03/01/2023 07:57

It's not a popular comment but I do think a lot of men probably aren't that bothered if they have DC or not but just go along with their wife's decision.

Sadly, I think you are right.

I just don't understand why women go on to have a second or third DC with a useless father
The problem is when you are in it, you often cannot see your options, or indeed how awful it is.

I see this a lot on MN, and when the poster asks for advice and is told to stop TTC the poster is in denial and won’t accept this advice. I don’t understand the “I must have a baby at all costs” mantra from some women.

I hope things work out well for you @PineappleSheep Flowers

Coxspurplepippin · 03/01/2023 08:03

OP you sound like my lovely SIL. I think she's waiting for DD to finish uni then she'll leave. Her husband has never, ever been a parent to their DD - started working long hours after she was born so he was out of the house before she got up and not back until she was in bed. Slept in until lunchtime at weekends then went and did the grocery shop to avoid spending time with his DD 'help out'.

Any love SIL ever had for him was killed stone dead by his behaviour years ago.

SayNoToPineappleJuice · 03/01/2023 08:08

Thank you for beautifully explaining the situation that so many of us find ourselves in OP.
I could have written your post word for word, up to the part where the love is gone and you are planning to leave. I still love DP and don't want to leave but sometimes the resentment bubbles over.
The biggest difference is that I am in a same sex marriage, so my DP is a woman. This situation is not exclusively a male problem.

Ridelikethewindypops · 03/01/2023 08:21

Absolutely agree with op. I would add, observe the relationship of your partners parents. That is what they have grown up with and that is what they will expect. Dad out at work and Mum did all housework and childcare? That's what they expect their own set up to be, crucially, whether you work or not!
I also agree we should teach our daughters to have high expectations and good boundaries. We should also model this for our sons. Show them how to respect the women in their lives. I think it's too late for most men to change by their late teens early 20s. Teach young boys now to pull their weight, be independent and share the load in their own home.

Thepeopleversuswork · 03/01/2023 08:27

And it is possible - in my life, I see it with siblings & friends. I do also see plenty of feckless eejits of fathers too, but there are good fathers actively bringing up their kids for sure.

Possibly. I have to say based on my own social circle that the “good fathers actively bringing up their kids” are in a tiny minority.

I just think assuming you will get this from a man is like playing Russian Roulette and nine times out of ten you’re better off going it alone.

BiasedBinding · 03/01/2023 08:32

“It's not a popular comment but I do think a lot of men probably aren't that bothered if they have DC or not but just go along with their wife's decision.”

no, this opinion is very popular throughout society, you aren’t saying anything new, and it is also a myth. Men get enormous benefits from having children and few downsides compared to women. It suits men very well for this myth to be perpetuated, those who wish to get to abdicate responsibility even more by framing it as women’s silly choice

WandaWonder · 03/01/2023 08:33

Ridelikethewindypops · 03/01/2023 08:21

Absolutely agree with op. I would add, observe the relationship of your partners parents. That is what they have grown up with and that is what they will expect. Dad out at work and Mum did all housework and childcare? That's what they expect their own set up to be, crucially, whether you work or not!
I also agree we should teach our daughters to have high expectations and good boundaries. We should also model this for our sons. Show them how to respect the women in their lives. I think it's too late for most men to change by their late teens early 20s. Teach young boys now to pull their weight, be independent and share the load in their own home.

So teach girls to have higher expectations and boys to be 'better' I find insulting in a way, as in the idea girls are good and boys are bab

I think if we teach both semester to be nicer and that others as they wantcro be treated and girls and boys can both grow up to help each other it is a better message

I am not saying you are specifically saying this but I am sick of this 'girls are pure and nice and men are useless and mean'

Coldaroo · 03/01/2023 08:33

SayNoToPineappleJuice · 03/01/2023 08:08

Thank you for beautifully explaining the situation that so many of us find ourselves in OP.
I could have written your post word for word, up to the part where the love is gone and you are planning to leave. I still love DP and don't want to leave but sometimes the resentment bubbles over.
The biggest difference is that I am in a same sex marriage, so my DP is a woman. This situation is not exclusively a male problem.

Ah, I am so shocked to read this! I am following the thread because of a friend finding herself in this situation and looking to understand her situation. But I am in a same-sex marriage and basically thought was protected from this sort of family dynamic. If you don't mind me asking, is it a birthparent / non-birth parent divide?

BiasedBinding · 03/01/2023 08:35

BiasedBinding · 03/01/2023 08:32

“It's not a popular comment but I do think a lot of men probably aren't that bothered if they have DC or not but just go along with their wife's decision.”

no, this opinion is very popular throughout society, you aren’t saying anything new, and it is also a myth. Men get enormous benefits from having children and few downsides compared to women. It suits men very well for this myth to be perpetuated, those who wish to get to abdicate responsibility even more by framing it as women’s silly choice

When I say benefits I mean things like greater respect, promotions etc - fatherhood has status for men, with very few requirements from them personally at a society level

Optimist2020 · 03/01/2023 08:36

I’m sorry you’re feeling this way OP. A lot of men do change for the worse after having children, even if they were initially excited to become a parent. I was raised to make sure I have the financial , emotional and practical ability to be a single parent as often men can let you down once baby is here .

Ridelikethewindypops · 03/01/2023 08:38

@WandaWonder I did mean teach them to treat each other as equals, equal respect. The undertone may have subconsciously slipped in because I am trying to teach my son to be better than his father, but I don't ever say that out loud 😔

SayNoToPineappleJuice · 03/01/2023 08:43

@Coldaroo
People are just people! If you have a partner that isn't pulling their weight pre-children they will be unlikely to change. Yes, I carried out DS (as agreed between us) and the realisation that DW wasn't going to be a strong and equal parent hit me when we were on the maternity ward! I was being induced for days on end and she was complaining about the lack of suitable shower facilities and the uncomfortable chair she was sat in....I begged her to go home for a rest but she wanted to stay in case the baby arrived suddenly. When he was finally born she pretty much slept nonstop to recover 🙄