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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The posters who always say "Well, what was he like before kids?"

148 replies

PineappleSheep · 03/01/2023 05:47

When an exhausted woman with a crappy husband posts for support and somebody immediately fires the "Well, what was he like before kids?"- immediately dismissing the poster's feelings (probably in the same way her husband does) and implying that she has chosen this path and her crappy husband is somehow her fault.

After being up every night this week with a poorly toddler and being unable to fall back to sleep while my shite husband snores away I'm in moany rant mode

In those first few years of a relationship before children you are just the tidier person. That's it. This is no big deal since your daily burden of responsibility is low anyway. I never felt resentful in the first few years of my relationship. I didn't mind being the main organiser and tidier. It wasn't a problem. I was younger, more positive and less worn down. I had plenty of free time and enjoyed keeping my home clean and tidy.

I never had exposure to the realities of having children, especially young children, since none of my friends or family had them. I was the first of my friends to have children.

During pregnancy I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow to suit the responsibilities of being a parent, as I also would. We both had some growing up to do and I naively assumed that we would both change for the better. I never doubted for second that he wouldn't do this. He was a very mature, sensible and stable person, why wouldn't he be a good parent?

However, once we had a baby it became clear very quickly that I was wrong. I felt blindsided and betrayed by his lack of support in the first year of our child's life. It was all far too much effort for him, despite saying all the right things prior to having a baby. Several years later and the lack of support has caused an absolutely enormous amount of resentment on my side. It's a slow process of repeated let downs and refusals of support that have completely killed any love or desire I had for him. This in turn has pulled us further apart, leading to more and more withdrawal from him. I no longer recognise the man I fell in love with, nor do I bother asking for support anymore. It's not worth the hassle.

Had I known that this would be my experience of having children I would have never had them with him. It is not the life I imagined and it's incredibly lonely. My child is my favourite person and has enhanced my life immeasurably but I will forever feel a sense of guilt and responsibility for lumbering them with a crappy father. I wish for them that he was better, because they deserve it.

I often see posters suggest that women like me see a man, realise how crap he is at cleaning and have kids anyway, simply because we selfishly wanted a baby. As if we have deliberately chosen this path to parenthood. The (simplified) reality is that I feel completely let down and had I known that the amount of hoovering my husband did in the early days of our relationship was an indicator of what's to come, it would never have been like this. I now realise just how important it was and would never maintain a relationship with somebody who didn't pull their weight. Hindsight would have been wonderful.

I am slowly (and finally) putting plans to leave in place, to give my child and I the opportunity for a better and happier life. I have tried to fight for them to have an actively involved father for years, but it is clear that parenthood was too much to ask for my husband. My toddler recently didn't notice that my husband was away for a week and my heart breaks for them. I know that we need to leave. However, leaving feels like an incredibly selfish thing to do too. It's so hard for women trapped in this position to make the decision to leave. We've often been fighting for years for our children to have the stereotypically 'perfect' family life and giving up/realising it's futile is so so hard.

I'll stop waffling now

OP posts:
AndNowForSomethingCompletelyDifferent · 03/01/2023 13:29

I think the problem lies in the low bar set for being a 'good Dad'.

Oh absolutely!

What some seem to view as being a ‘good Dad’ would border on neglect if it was a woman.

He holds the baby for 5 minutes while I have a shower, he’s a good Dad.

He spends all his money on drink and drugs but he’s a good Dad.

He’s emotional/physically/financially abusive but he’s a good Dad.

He lies in til 11am every day and spends all his time gaming, but he’s a good Dad.

We fool ourselves. It’s so depressing.

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 13:35

Mumsnet deffo has an issue with Xmas presents.🤣🤣
Dp fully acknowledges his opinion on Xmas, birthdays etc.
Load of bollox.
Least I know where I stand.

Gwenhwyfar · 03/01/2023 13:35

"men won’t change their behaviour."

Except that many of them have. My younger male colleagues take very active roles, doing all the cooking, etc.
Of course, you might argue they're all lying, but I know some of the wives so there's not much lying they can get away with.

Coldaroo · 03/01/2023 13:41

SayNoToPineappleJuice · 03/01/2023 11:11

@Coldaroo
I suppose it depends what makes you worry that you aren't being good partner?

If your OH constantly seems stressed to fuck and like they don't want to be near you then there is every chance you could be doing more.

Probably the fact that you are worried about it means either;
a) you are a conscientious and caring part and have nothing to worry about
b) you aren't being as supportive as you could be and you already know it

I have started some extra childcare for when I am not working so that I have time to myself and I am looking into a cleaner coming for an afternoon every other week to do deep cleaning stuff (but struggling to find someone I like for the days I can do)

DW and I love each other so much and she is very attentive in some areas. More than anything, when we can put stresses to one side we enjoy each other's company and laugh a lot. I think this rough patch coincides with young DC and should improve once our DS is more independent. At the end of the day, when he starts having a life of his own there is nobody else I want to grow old with, just DW.

@SayNoToPineappleJuice
It is definitely the latter, I should be doing more. In fact we both should, we talk about this a lot, but we just can't do more at the moment. We both work, have two little ones (2 and 4) and absolutely no family support. So basically we are constantly in burn out and while I appreciate my wife pulls her weight more, I think we have different levels of resilience. But I think the key for us is that we communicate and try to prioritise things together. We have had to accept that we can't do everything we ordinarily should in terms of housekeeping. We are looking for some outside help in the new year, but otherwise don't know what the solution will be. Maybe just kids getting bigger or more independent.

Your sentiment about your wife being the person you want to grow old with is very touching and is a great foundation. Hope you can find a way through to both feel content in the present as well.

Crikeyalmighty · 03/01/2023 13:48

At 61 I've been married twice and lived with someone for 4 years in between. Like a lot of women I was more interested when younger in 'did I fancy them, did we get on and like similar things, were they hard working/ not a total loser'. I really didn't notice the fact they did next to bugger all domestically because I was quite enjoying playing house, making a nice home, cooking meals, going on holidays. It's only after kids and at least 5 years with someone that I realised I wasn't having it all- I was doing it all and it had become 'expected' and combined with working, I was pretty knackered. If I was on my own now or as a young woman I would be looking closely at someone's domestic skills and their attitudes towards it- did they have to be nagged etc- !!

Stravaig · 03/01/2023 13:50

Questions about previous behaviour or the decision to have multiple children with an unsuitable partner and co-parent do not come from a place of internalised misogyny or a desire to blame the OP or women generally.

They come from a sense of responsibility and a desire to educate and empower. To remind an OP (and so women generally) that she has agency, that she made a choice, a bad choice; but now she can make a different choice, one which will improve her life; because she does has agency, and it is her choice. To me, that is a hopeful thought and an empowering thought.

Tragically some posters would rather remain the helpless victim of inexplicably mean men, and lash out at those trying to help; instead of taking responsibility for their previously misjudged choices, and trying something different in the future. Other posters are awe-inspiring in the way they face a painful reality, make dramatic changes, and build a new life for themselves and their children.

Outwiththenorm · 03/01/2023 13:56

Pets. No one should have a baby before test running with a pet imho. Sleepless nights, vet trips, arguments over whose turn is to walk the dog / empty the litter tray… if your DH won’t do his 50% that then he’s going to be a rubbish father too.

piedbeauty · 03/01/2023 16:22

@BarkAscending - Post kids, he did exactly the same chores as he did before. I ended up taking on all of the rest of it. He refused to do more. Point blank refused.

How was I meant to predict that?

My post said that if a man is crap before kids then don't expect him to change.

I didn't mention your situation. That's an odd one. What was his reasoning for not doing anything extra after you had a dc?

BarkAscending · 03/01/2023 16:33

piedbeauty · 03/01/2023 16:22

@BarkAscending - Post kids, he did exactly the same chores as he did before. I ended up taking on all of the rest of it. He refused to do more. Point blank refused.

How was I meant to predict that?

My post said that if a man is crap before kids then don't expect him to change.

I didn't mention your situation. That's an odd one. What was his reasoning for not doing anything extra after you had a dc?

No, your post said this; I disagree. The warning signs are there, staring women in the face, but many women either ignore them or think optimistically that their partner will change. I don't think it's misogynistic to point out that women have a responsibility to choose a good man as a father of their dc, a man who will share the parenting load with them

You said, clearly and explicitly, that the warning signs are there staring women in the face. And they are not always. They were not in my case. Many women, as this thread shows, find that the man they are with is not the man you would have predicted before you have kids. They either change, or in my case, at least with regard to domestic chores, they don't change when they need to.
You then dug the boot in by blaming women for having the responsibility for finding a good father. Its bad enough to be in this situation without having other women telling you its your fault your kids have a shit dad. Actually, its the father's fault they are are shit father. Always and every time. And, yeah, it is misogynistic to blame women for men's failings. That's pretty textbook misogyny.

Angeldelight81 · 03/01/2023 16:56

@piedbeauty I think literally all you can do in that scenario. If they don’t step up to parent number one they don’t get to have number two, but then of course who’s loss is that. It’s such a difficult situation. Maybe we should just all assume when we have kids that we will be a parent on our own until proven otherwise and then you can look at him as is he any good as a life partner, is he good in bed, does he smell Nice ? Does he kiss you properly? Does he hold doors open for you? What did he buy you for your birthday? If you can’t get any of that right, plenty of them can’t then what actually is the point?

piedbeauty · 03/01/2023 16:59

@BarkAscending - I'm sorry you're so angry, but I think your anger is misplaced. When I said The warning signs are there, staring women in the face, but many women either ignore them or think optimistically that their partner will change

I meant the warning signs that a man is not going to be a good dad - eg not doing chores, not adulting, being selfish.

If your partner was a good partner before having a child, then clearly there were no warning signs for you to heed... 🙄

And please don't call me misogynistic. It's not misogynistic to point out that some women choose bad fathers for their dc or some women stay in bad relationships for far too long.

Crunchymum · 03/01/2023 18:02

Isthisexpected · 03/01/2023 12:43

Crap dad's were always crap partners before. We just tolerated more (your first post highlights this OP)

^ not true. Some wonderful partners turn out to be crap dads!

Well this is true.

But in hindsight I'd be interested to hear how wonderful these partners really were before kids. As I say I am pretty sure women just tolerate more and excuse more and accept more (for whatever reason, mine was because I had an office based job and could do all the life admin more easily than my manual worker DP and then 10 years down the line I was doing absolutely all the life admin as well as most of the childcare etc)

But yeah the crapness was always there!

Cellotapedispenser · 03/01/2023 18:49

Someone up thread has commented that 'if you want something done just ask'. Honestly I've tried that. What happens is this. We have 'the chat', he agrees to do more. We agree what those tasks are. I'll give a real life example; dh you hoover once a week. Yes he says. Week 1 he does it. Week 2 takes 9 days, I mention it and get huffy puffy 'yes yes I know I'll do it', 11 days I mention again, get told I'm nagging. Day 12. I stealth hoover because we're crunching when we walk now. Day 14 I mention again. Yes yes yes I know, I've been busy I'll do it. Day 21- row ensues. I tell him to forget it and rage hoover twice a week.

Yes I could just leave it, but I don't want to live in a house that is hoovered once every 2 months. It's grim. The fact is he doesn't care or see the dirt and I'm a nag or a fusspot for wanting it just to be base level clean.

Another pp said look at your DHs family and see your future. Wish I'd had that advice 25 years ago. DHs mum cleans all day long and serves the men and expects the women to run about. But DH was all about equality and sharing til DC1 so no, I didn't spot the issue. Maternity broke the agreement in my view when I did everything for a year and that's how it's stayed. If I don't cook or clean or shop then it's the DC that suffer.

NotAnotherBathBomb · 03/01/2023 20:02

ASimpleLampoon · 03/01/2023 12:03

Unless these people direthe blaming shaming and judgement at the shfty men they know in real life then they are part of he proble m. This issue is systemic. Unless men are actively held accountable for their own behaviour by the people around them nothing will change.

And until that magic wand is waved, women need to raise their standards

SpangoDweller · 03/01/2023 20:42

My partner does do jobs but I have to delegate them to him, he doesn't really see things that need doing.

But @Dragonfly909 that’s just ridiculous really. Does he see things that need doing at work? Even entry-level jobs are expected to have a bit of nous and initiative. Does he manage to keep up with hobbies and interests? I assume so. He “doesn’t see” the housework that needs doing because he knows it’s not his job and doesn’t care.

NoSquirrels · 04/01/2023 08:03

while I appreciate my wife pulls her weight more, I think we have different levels of resilience

@Coldaroo my DH would say this. It’s an excuse, and it’s bollocks in my opinion. I’m ‘more resilient’ because I’ve got no choice. What if you had no choice? What if your DP was suddenly the weaker link? Would you step up then because you had to? If so, don’t leave it that long - don’t wait for that to happen because it will eventually, one way or another.

PineappleSheep · 04/01/2023 09:10

Thanks for all the lovely messages of support. I was expecting much more of a backlash so I'm relieved! In a selfish way I'm glad I'm not alone, but I'm sorry that there are so many of us in this situation. I hope that those who are stuck are able to leave eventually. I would have never imagined actually leaving a few years ago, but it's feeling more and more like a real possibility now. Well done to all of you who have made that enormously brave decision to leave.

I think it is due to misogynistic attitudes, even if they don't see it, or don't claim to it see it. Probably partners whose fathers were useless too, as others have said. DH's father certainly was and it killed his marriage too. Hopefully the next generation will be better partners.

For those who called me stupid and foolish, I can't argue with that. I certainly feel it! I just hope to make my son's childhood the best that I can.

OP posts:
PineappleSheep · 04/01/2023 09:16

We were together for eight years before having our child. He wasn't completely useless then. He cooked and cleaned regularly, just not as much as I did. As others have said I think maternity leave did it. It became the norm to do everything and as a result he has absolutely no idea what it actually takes to run a house/life with a child.

OP posts:
PineappleSheep · 04/01/2023 09:17

*for me to do everything

OP posts:
QueenoftheNimbleFlyingCat · 04/01/2023 09:28

YANBU, although my ex was always a little useless with cleaning and cooking he did make an effort and it didn't seem like too much work for me. He was even better when our first DC came, I was the main earner and he would fully support overnights away with work and engage with DC- not as much as me but with one it didn't feel too much.

When the second DC came along he couldn't cope at all as I needed him to step up and he just couldn't do it. It was an awful 4 years with 2 DC and me wearing myself into the ground.

He was desperate to be a dad and I really thought he would grow up - he still hasn't and that is why he is an ex.

lieselotte · 04/01/2023 10:17

still apparently some men don't see it. They do see it. They just don't care

This is actually my point. The woman cares, the man doesn't. So if you want him to do something about it, tell him.

To be fair, I am probably less fussy than my DH is, so I don't have this in my house. But my mum is fussier than either of us, so I have said to her that if she wants me to do something, she needs to ask. To be fair, she isn't generally backwards at coming forwards if she wants us to do something, but sometimes she still expects telepathy to work.

lieselotte · 04/01/2023 10:22

Does he see things that need doing at work? Even entry-level jobs are expected to have a bit of nous and initiative. Does he manage to keep up with hobbies and interests? I assume so. He “doesn’t see” the housework that needs doing because he knows it’s not his job and doesn’t care

I am not sure that is true in all jobs. In some jobs you are roundly told off for showing any initiative, especially if you have a micro-managing boss.

And clearly hobbies are different to housework.

I totally agree about the "Good Dad" bar being set low though - especially when people have employers who think only mums should take time off for sick kids, or a dad is being amazing if he goes to his child's nativity play whereas the mum is showing a lack of commitment to her job. But that is a different point to doing housework. If you want it doing, either do it yourself or ask/tell your DH to do it. Of course, if a man doesn't do it having been asked, or whines about it, then that's a different matter.

So much is down to communication though.

Coldaroo · 04/01/2023 22:46

NoSquirrels · 04/01/2023 08:03

while I appreciate my wife pulls her weight more, I think we have different levels of resilience

@Coldaroo my DH would say this. It’s an excuse, and it’s bollocks in my opinion. I’m ‘more resilient’ because I’ve got no choice. What if you had no choice? What if your DP was suddenly the weaker link? Would you step up then because you had to? If so, don’t leave it that long - don’t wait for that to happen because it will eventually, one way or another.

Yes, you are right, it is partly an excuse and kind of bullshit. What happens with us is that I pick the jobs that suit me better, which definitely mean the physically less demanding ones (e.g. life admin, cooking, laundry, grocery shopping...) and partner is basically left with the ones I don't want to do. However, she definitely wouldn't want to do the admin type of things, it stresses her out and she often messes admin things up, so not her strong point. And there is a lot of admin to do, but regardless, she does indeed do the physically more demanding jobs.
And in response to the question: yes, I do step up when needed but cannot perform in emergency mode in everyday life. Just cannot, we are feeling totally burnt out and really struggling how to fit things in. So I think our reality is that we are both super stretched and cannot meet all the demands of life at the moment, so what gives is housework. And this makes me wonder, those of you that carry the entire burden of home life chores, are you constantly in emergency mode? How do you keep doing that longterm?

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