The posters who always say "Well, what was he like before kids?"

[PineappleSheep]

When an exhausted woman with a crappy husband posts for support and somebody immediately fires the "Well, what was he like before kids?"- immediately dismissing the poster's feelings (probably in the same way her husband does) and implying that she has chosen this path and her crappy husband is somehow her fault.

After being up every night this week with a poorly toddler and being unable to fall back to sleep while my shite husband snores away I'm in moany rant mode

In those first few years of a relationship before children you are just the tidier person. That's it. This is no big deal since your daily burden of responsibility is low anyway. I never felt resentful in the first few years of my relationship. I didn't mind being the main organiser and tidier. It wasn't a problem. I was younger, more positive and less worn down. I had plenty of free time and enjoyed keeping my home clean and tidy.

I never had exposure to the realities of having children, especially young children, since none of my friends or family had them. I was the first of my friends to have children.

During pregnancy I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow to suit the responsibilities of being a parent, as I also would. We both had some growing up to do and I naively assumed that we would both change for the better. I never doubted for second that he wouldn't do this. He was a very mature, sensible and stable person, why wouldn't he be a good parent?

However, once we had a baby it became clear very quickly that I was wrong. I felt blindsided and betrayed by his lack of support in the first year of our child's life. It was all far too much effort for him, despite saying all the right things prior to having a baby. Several years later and the lack of support has caused an absolutely enormous amount of resentment on my side. It's a slow process of repeated let downs and refusals of support that have completely killed any love or desire I had for him. This in turn has pulled us further apart, leading to more and more withdrawal from him. I no longer recognise the man I fell in love with, nor do I bother asking for support anymore. It's not worth the hassle.

Had I known that this would be my experience of having children I would have never had them with him. It is not the life I imagined and it's incredibly lonely. My child is my favourite person and has enhanced my life immeasurably but I will forever feel a sense of guilt and responsibility for lumbering them with a crappy father. I wish for them that he was better, because they deserve it.

I often see posters suggest that women like me see a man, realise how crap he is at cleaning and have kids anyway, simply because we selfishly wanted a baby. As if we have deliberately chosen this path to parenthood. The (simplified) reality is that I feel completely let down and had I known that the amount of hoovering my husband did in the early days of our relationship was an indicator of what's to come, it would never have been like this. I now realise just how important it was and would never maintain a relationship with somebody who didn't pull their weight. Hindsight would have been wonderful.

I am slowly (and finally) putting plans to leave in place, to give my child and I the opportunity for a better and happier life. I have tried to fight for them to have an actively involved father for years, but it is clear that parenthood was too much to ask for my husband. My toddler recently didn't notice that my husband was away for a week and my heart breaks for them. I know that we need to leave. However, leaving feels like an incredibly selfish thing to do too. It's so hard for women trapped in this position to make the decision to leave. We've often been fighting for years for our children to have the stereotypically 'perfect' family life and giving up/realising it's futile is so so hard.

I'll stop waffling now

You write so eloquently OP.

I think in regards to leaving, that by doing so you’re hopefully breaking the cycle with your own children, not to copy your relationship or your DH’s behaviour.

There is someone local to me who has gone on to have 3 children with a ‘useless’ father. He wasn’t great with the first, she struggled massively with her mental health as he isn’t good with kids until they are older (because women get that option?), then knowing he was a shit Dad, went on to have 2 more, because she wasn’t ‘done’. And is now struggling yet again. Unfortunately the fb group she posts on only supports ‘you go Mama’ and hugs as support, rather than anything constructive. Which I find really disappointing.

This thread reminds me of the Pulp song 'Little Soul' Which is a dad telling his child not to be like him 'I've run away from the one thing that I ever made'

But anyway - OP what would your DH say if he knew you were planning to leave? If you're planning to leave say in 3 years, how can you spend that time giving the best chance that he'll step up a bit as a co-parent? Do you ever directly tell him 'do this for DC'? I know it shouldn't be your job, but it might prompt him a bit. What happens if he's left with DC on his own for a day?

I do think you're being unreasonable for being annoyed at him snoring, that's not a moral failing!

There's also an awful lot of scornfulness here about the idea that another baby might actually be important to someone.

If you're past a certain age and desperately want a second child then your options may be stay with useless but harmless husband or lose that chance forever. And mentally you might well do the sums and decide you can always leave him after the second if you want to. It's not like it's going to make a difference to the fact you need to keep him involved in your life; that was sealed with the first one.

Even with the first child, this is absolutely a thing - and some men know this and will run the clock down until someone is at "I stay with him or give up motherhood forever, its too late to start again".

Not my situation - I'm a widow - but one I absolutely empathise with.

Great OP. It really resonated with me regarding my Exdh.
He was great before ds arrived, my equal partner and I wrongly assumed he would be an equal parent because well... humans evolve and grow and adapt don't they? Women are certainly expected to.

I have also been spoilt in the fact that I have an excellent Ddad. That man used to come in from work happy to see me, listen to all my ramblings, show me what he was doing and let me join in, taught me to cook, never shouted or hit me, read me bedtime stories, and was up at 6 the next morning to make me breakfast before he went to work. ❤️

There is no reason why exdh couldn't do all of the above for his own DS

I disagree. The warning signs are there, staring women in the face, but many women either ignore them or think optimistically that their partner will change.

I don't think it's misogynistic to point out that women have a responsibility to choose a good man as a father of their dc, a man who will share the parenting load with them.

@SayNoToPineappleJuice
So sorry to hear you are finding yourself in this position. You are saying you still love her, is she a good partner outside house duties? Is it an option to hire help for some tasks? Your post is really hitting home, I am the non-birth parent in our family and in general the weaker person (physically and mentally) so do wonder, if I am actually a useless partner just not realising. Some serious self-reflection needed here!

90% of men are the shitty toddlers discussed on this thread

unfortunately the only person who decides whether we commit to them is us. we can’t cry ‘internalised misogyny!’ and still prop up the utter self harm that comes with settling with a man whose idea of cleaning up is pissing off his dried-on toilet skids

its basic biology. We need to stop these fuckers spreading their genes. We have to literally gatekeep our vaginas and lives.

i hope the next generation of women realise that a man who has to be project managed to clean his own fucking house is absolutely something that needs to be swerved.

From what I’ve seen though, I doubt it. Too many women have had it completely engrained from their martyr mothers and giant baby fathers that it’s completely NORMAL for them to just ‘see’ what needs to be done.

I think sometimes, some women think they’ll be the one to change them. You see it so often on the relationship or pregnancy boards. He’ll step up when the baby is here, he’ll change if we have a baby. Why? If he’s failing to be an adult pre baby why do you think throwing a bombshell into the relationship might improve things? Very few women are the ‘exception’ rather than the ‘rule’. Yet we cling onto this.

It is beyond reprehensible and utterly immoral to knowingly produce another human being with a bad partner, and to saddle that being with a terrible father. And to saddle society with another ff'd up product of a shitty home life.

Absolutely beyond the pale to do it, especially for selfish emotional reasons.

We can't always have what we want in life.

i hope the next generation of women realise that a man who has to be project managed to clean his own fucking house is absolutely something that needs to be swerved
Yes! Yes! Yes!

It's not attractive to have to nag a man to complete the simplest tasks required for daily life.

Well said!

We women have the power to decide which men become fathers and which do not. We need to use that power.

The signs are always, always there. Don't let loneliness, desperation and a "ticking clock" cloud your vision.

And yet further upthread you've got people claiming that's 90% of men. Which I suspect is incredible hyperbole but still. If it is in fact That Many men and you are sitting on a forum called mumsnet it must be a crime most of us are guilty of.

Exactly this. The current bar is tragically low.

Looking at my husband, my brother, my friends: I don’t see these incompetent males that are constantly paraded on MN.

My STBXH's family and friends would say exactly the same. They have NO idea what he's like when the doors are closed. Not a single clue. They universally think he's kind, caring, fair, pulls his own weight - even does LOTS more in the house than he should and how lucky I am.

Behind closed doors he's extremely controlling. He's completely broken me. AND he thinks I shouldn't have a career because I'm a mother. This never, ever came up in discussions about marriage and children. Ever. I didn't miss it because it's a complete no-go for me. It came out because I was complaining that I had never felt supported with my retraining, in fact felt hurdle after hurdle had been thrown in my way. And he came straight out and said it. All his female friends are international lawyers - BIG careers - and all have children. His mother and sister have careers. His brother's wife is doing a PhD. So nobody around him gives away that he'd think like this. And the few people who know him who I've told have been completely shocked.

So just because you don't see men behaving badly, has absolutely no hating on how they actually behave when nobody other than their wife/LTP is watching.

This is a really thought provoking thread - thanks OP.
My relationship isn’t perfect but my DH is a very involved partner and parent and by and large we do share the load. I have however been judged by other women, family members and various randoms for ‘allowing’ him to help or even, shock horror, take charge (eg he did bath nights for the first year and my NTC group said ‘poor man after a hard days work’, he took DD to a hospital appointment once and the receptionist chided me for turning up at the end to collect: ‘couldn’t you have come?’). I remember at baby sensory someone saying their husband ‘wouldn’t be seen dead’ at a baby class - like he is a surly teenager.
So I think there is an entrenched idea of what a good mother / wife (and what a good macho man) is and there is pushback to equality on many fronts - this is a trap. You feel you have to fulfil something impossibly giving and they feel emasculated if they participate.
So much has to change.

Wow. This is a genuinely shocking mindset.

You do know no one has an entitlement to a child? Let alone multiple ones with a suboptimal partner.

Attitudes like this are a large part of the reason why so many women end up in such unsatisfactory situations. I honestly think women like this would be better off being sterilised as they can’t think rationally.

I'm so sorry. There are better people out there.

What part of it is actually irrational and shocking to you?

"This man isn't great"; welp, according to people further up the thread that's 90% of men so no wonder people talk themselves into settling.

"I want this enough that I'm prepared to do it in non-ideal circumstances". Take a look at the stress caused to a body and finances by IVF. People go to great lengths and put themselves under great stress and strain to have a child. That they're prepared to have one in a non-ideal relationship is not particularly shocking.

Put it another way: there are people who will go to vast amounts of trouble to be a single parent through IVF when they realise they're running out of time and not in a relationship. It's a lot cheaper and easier to stay in a relationship and hope it works out and at worst comes out with basically the same result.

@Coldaroo
I suppose it depends what makes you worry that you aren't being good partner?

If your OH constantly seems stressed to fuck and like they don't want to be near you then there is every chance you could be doing more.

Probably the fact that you are worried about it means either;
a) you are a conscientious and caring part and have nothing to worry about
b) you aren't being as supportive as you could be and you already know it

I have started some extra childcare for when I am not working so that I have time to myself and I am looking into a cleaner coming for an afternoon every other week to do deep cleaning stuff (but struggling to find someone I like for the days I can do)

DW and I love each other so much and she is very attentive in some areas. More than anything, when we can put stresses to one side we enjoy each other's company and laugh a lot. I think this rough patch coincides with young DC and should improve once our DS is more independent. At the end of the day, when he starts having a life of his own there is nobody else I want to grow old with, just DW.

I think the single most important decision a woman makes in her life, is to whom she has children. Everything in terms of her quality of life and the kids depends on that. People ought to be a lot more fussy. And if that means just having one child or non-at all, it is actually better than bringing a kid into the some of the situations we read on here.

What about the "non-ideal circumstances " the new human being is born into?!?

Honestly, no one's emotional desire to procreate justifies producing offspring in dysfunctional and "non-ideal circumstances." Ever.

It's contemptible.

I agree OP and sorry your DH is being so shit. I also think that (some) men choose parenthood as a moment to actively shed responsibility. Not helped by the woman often taking a year of maternity leave and ending up doing it all then. They realise before parenthood that they really do need to run the hoover round occasionally, cook dinner etc so even if it's not quite 50/50 you feel they can do it and will surely step up a little after DC. Afterwards they think "well, she needs to do it for the child anyway or is at home for the child, I can leave it to her...". It's like they think you have become their mummy too. Then wonder why the sex has dried up!

Following

I agree OP.

If a man doesn't do his share of housework before children, it's a pound to a penny he sees housework as woman's work. And that he also sees child-rearing as woman's work. He's a not a woman, so none of that is his job. It's logical enough, from that standpoint.

The trick for women is to spot these attitudes in time and proceed accordingly.