The posters who always say "Well, what was he like before kids?"

[PineappleSheep]

When an exhausted woman with a crappy husband posts for support and somebody immediately fires the "Well, what was he like before kids?"- immediately dismissing the poster's feelings (probably in the same way her husband does) and implying that she has chosen this path and her crappy husband is somehow her fault.

After being up every night this week with a poorly toddler and being unable to fall back to sleep while my shite husband snores away I'm in moany rant mode

In those first few years of a relationship before children you are just the tidier person. That's it. This is no big deal since your daily burden of responsibility is low anyway. I never felt resentful in the first few years of my relationship. I didn't mind being the main organiser and tidier. It wasn't a problem. I was younger, more positive and less worn down. I had plenty of free time and enjoyed keeping my home clean and tidy.

I never had exposure to the realities of having children, especially young children, since none of my friends or family had them. I was the first of my friends to have children.

During pregnancy I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow to suit the responsibilities of being a parent, as I also would. We both had some growing up to do and I naively assumed that we would both change for the better. I never doubted for second that he wouldn't do this. He was a very mature, sensible and stable person, why wouldn't he be a good parent?

However, once we had a baby it became clear very quickly that I was wrong. I felt blindsided and betrayed by his lack of support in the first year of our child's life. It was all far too much effort for him, despite saying all the right things prior to having a baby. Several years later and the lack of support has caused an absolutely enormous amount of resentment on my side. It's a slow process of repeated let downs and refusals of support that have completely killed any love or desire I had for him. This in turn has pulled us further apart, leading to more and more withdrawal from him. I no longer recognise the man I fell in love with, nor do I bother asking for support anymore. It's not worth the hassle.

Had I known that this would be my experience of having children I would have never had them with him. It is not the life I imagined and it's incredibly lonely. My child is my favourite person and has enhanced my life immeasurably but I will forever feel a sense of guilt and responsibility for lumbering them with a crappy father. I wish for them that he was better, because they deserve it.

I often see posters suggest that women like me see a man, realise how crap he is at cleaning and have kids anyway, simply because we selfishly wanted a baby. As if we have deliberately chosen this path to parenthood. The (simplified) reality is that I feel completely let down and had I known that the amount of hoovering my husband did in the early days of our relationship was an indicator of what's to come, it would never have been like this. I now realise just how important it was and would never maintain a relationship with somebody who didn't pull their weight. Hindsight would have been wonderful.

I am slowly (and finally) putting plans to leave in place, to give my child and I the opportunity for a better and happier life. I have tried to fight for them to have an actively involved father for years, but it is clear that parenthood was too much to ask for my husband. My toddler recently didn't notice that my husband was away for a week and my heart breaks for them. I know that we need to leave. However, leaving feels like an incredibly selfish thing to do too. It's so hard for women trapped in this position to make the decision to leave. We've often been fighting for years for our children to have the stereotypically 'perfect' family life and giving up/realising it's futile is so so hard.

I'll stop waffling now

My husband did MORE of the household tasks than me before kids. Was more domesticated. He really wanted kids. He was loving and he adored me. If I wanted him to do something else around the house, say DIY, I might have to remind him a few time, but he would do it.

Post kids, he did exactly the same chores as he did before. I ended up taking on all of the rest of it. He refused to do more. Point blank refused.

How was I meant to predict that?

A friend once told me that if she and her boyfriend were staying in at one of their homes, she would expect her to cook. I was shocked! They didn't end up together, but if they had she would definitely have known he wasn't going to do 50% wouldn't she?
I asked a colleague why she married her husband whom she insisted was lazy. She said she was blinded by love so it's not that she didn't know what he was like, but that she was in denial.

Sounds like you had children young OP and nobody had talked to you about issues like housework, but many MN parents are older than that. They will have heard friends and colleagues talking about this. They can't all pretend to be naive.

💯

"further upthread you've got people claiming that's 90% of men"

A very sexist attitude that frees men of their responsibilities and women of any reason to choose someone better.

I also think as women there is a tendency to 'mother' a partner, see the good in them and want to bring it out of them (pre kids). But then after kids all our mothering goes to the children... and so the resentment builds.

There's no one truth here. Some men change for the worse after kids come along. Some men step up and grow into their new role, as the woman does. Some men carry on as before, only now there's a baby in the mix their 'before' is no longer tolerable.

It is disingenuous though, to say that the idea of questioning "what was he like before" has no merit. On an individual case it's maybe not helpful (though it could be argued recognising that you failed to recognise the signs could help you avoid them in future potential partners) but as a larger point, 'for the room' as pp said, it often is a very valid point. A friend of mine had serious doubts going into her marriage, because her STBDH was a self centred asshole, but she had completely convinced herself that he would change once they were married, and would change even more once they had kids. She was certain he would grow into these new roles of husband and father, and that she just had to get him into that role for the magic to happen. Thank fuck he got caught cheating on her before they got to the kids stage. When it came to husband number two she made a very, very different choice of man, happily. She is very honest with herself that she ignored the signs because she didn't want to walk away from the relationship and thought she / marriage / kids would fix him.

Crap dad's were always crap partners before. We just tolerated more (your first post highlights this OP)

I say this as someone who is separated from the crap dad {lovely bloke, kids still have a great relationship with him, but he is a shit dad and partner]

Then no one should be having children and we should shut this website down as immoral because ideal circumstances are incredibly hard to find.

Over the past few years country wide we’ve had COVID and now a cost of living crisis. Both clearly non ideal so I hope you didn’t have children during them.

Over the past five years my children have dealt with my mother dying, my husband dying, my cancer diagnosis, and my repeated hospitalisations. None of which were predictable when I gave birth but frankly a divorce would probably have been simpler and easier on them. Still they survive and even thrive - currently one is reading whilst the other does Lego.

Life is non ideal. You can have children in the perfect marriage and then one of you can die. You can be perfectly financially stable and then the company can sink. You can budget beautifully and then the COL crisis can shoot up your mortgage and utilities and wreck you.

But please do tell me about your childrens perfect life as you clearly know how to do it right.

Unless these people direthe blaming shaming and judgement at the shfty men they know in real life then they are part of he proble m. This issue is systemic. Unless men are actively held accountable for their own behaviour by the people around them nothing will change.

Oh absolutely but I find this website is great for sexism that way so occasionally it is useful to actually repeat arguments back so that people have how stupid they are being highlighted.

@Swg

Then no one should be having children and we should shut this website down as immoral because ideal circumstances are incredibly hard to find.

But there's a massive gulf between "ideal circumstances" and a feckless, lazy man who has made it clear he isn't prepared to do anything domestic at all.

Having children with such a man literally guarantees that the woman's quality of life, and that of the children, will deteriorate rapidly and that the children will receive poor role models.

Obviously no one can predict things like illness, acts of god or economic crisis. But you can predict that if you've already had one baby with a useless man that he is not going to become any less useless with a second baby.

No one is entitled to a baby and people who can't give a baby a minimum standard of parenting shouldn't have the baby in the first place.

I see some posters are labouring under the idea that men can be changed.

I don’t think men can be changed. I expect them to change as their circumstances do, and if they don’t, that’s their own inadequacy rather than the fault of the women in their lives.

Crap dad's were always crap partners before. We just tolerated more (your first post highlights this OP)

^ not true. Some wonderful partners turn out to be crap dads!

Some wonderful partners turn out to be crap dads!

Does the opposite ever happen?

Before we had kids, my husband did his fair share of cleaning and cooking and organising. I would never have married him if he didn't or had children with him. People don't change. You admit you knew what he was like and hoped he would change when you had kids. In reality , and I agree hindsight is a wonder, you should never even have married him. Women need to hold a higher bar and not get automatically sucked into doing all the wife work

I'm sure I've seen an internet thing that reflects your thinking. Something about women being happier to play house and taking pride in looking after their man pre baby but then realise that he doesnt change after a baby and it's very tiring and better not to set those habits in the first place.

I make this observation gently, why would a man be expecting to change? you "didnt mind being the organiser and tidier...you enjoyed it". Most of those men go from mummy to girlfriend and never see the gap. Or they live in squalor until they find a new woman who will play house.

I have several friends who, before children, had very equal relationships with their DHs. Both of them had careers and hobbies etc and they both took care of their own 'life admin' and an equal share of cleaning/cooking etc. They both enjoyed time together but were happy for each other to spend time with friends/doing hobbies etc without them. When they discussed having DC their DHs made all the right noises- of course they'd be a 'hands on' Dad/do their share of childcare/domestic tasks etc. But the reality was that whilst the wife was on maternity leave she did most of the extra work that comes with having a baby. The DH would happily do his share of childcare/cleaning etc in the evenings or weekends if he was home but didn't stop any of the socialising/working late/sports etc that he'd done before. He'd do baby-related tasks if specifically requested (and if he was available) but all the mental load etc was down to the wife. The DHs always said that their wife was free to have her own social life/hobbies etc just as she had done before DC but in reality this always needed to fit around the DHs hobbies etc or she needed to sort out child-care and her DH would do no domestic jobs etc whilst she was away unless specifically requested. None of these DHs gave any indication before DC that they were going to be crap. Only one of the wives has left her DH- the others complain about the situation but maintain that he's a good Dad/works hard etc. I think the problem lies in the low bar set for being a 'good Dad'.

Erm no it doesn’t

’finding someone better’ is extremely hard because of most men being useless, and that’s the point. You don’t settle for anything less than a whole fucking grown up with a bunting of green flags

men don’t have responsibilities any more because women have been normalised to bear the brunt of them.

A a man who will buy Xmas presents for his family, be a provider OR do actual 50/50 (so you can thrive in your career), clean the fucking house without being asked, meal plan and actively parent IS a rare find. And we should look for that rare find and swerve those who don’t exhibit these traits.

Unless you can find that perfect mate deserving of you, you don’t settle. You build a beautiful life for yourself with hobbies and pets and a great career

Unfortunately there are more than enough women happy to settle for absolutely useless tests, and they end up suffering in the end. And the cycle continues.

only women can stop this.

men won’t change their behaviour. Hasn’t millennia of patriarchy taught us this?! 😂😂😂

I'll be honest, I am one of these people. In your words you were naive but I think you were stupid. It is stupid in my view to have children with a lazy man. People just don't consider laziness to equal a lack of respect in a relationship but I do. I have always wanted children but I was very ready to stay single than lumber myself with a deadbeat. I want to model a good relationship for my kids, especially so my girl have good self esteem and value themselves. My dh is very much an equal partner and does hos fair share of cooking, cleaning and night wake ups. We are a team and I just wouldn't settle for anything less.

I wouldn't want to make someone who already feels shit to feel worse but they do need to take responsibility for themselves. Often in posts similar the man is a lazy, useless dad yet they go on to have more children making their own life harder. I don't understand it and the cycle continues.

I am in much the same boat, my life is almost perfect - if only my husband would pull his weight. I love being a mother and love spending time with my children, I'm so sad they have an awful role model for a father. I'm resentful of my husband and he thinks he does nothing 'that bad' to have caused this, but years of carrying the weight of a grown man would do the same to anyone. My life would be easier without him.

Agree with all of this. It does amaze me when women have more than one child with a useless manchild.

Also, I still think a lot of women are much fussier than their husbands/male partners. And there is a serious lack of communication too. It's no good dropping hints and expecting things to get done. If you think the lounge needs dusting then say "can you please dust the lounge" or if you think the bathroom needs cleaning, ask your other half to do it. Don't expect telepathy and don't expect them to see what you see. They may not care that things are messy. My son is messy but even he is one of the tidy ones in his student house - so there are degrees of what people consider is messy. I know people will whine about "mental load" but if you want something doing, ask.

Ditto for things like not feeding the kids the "right" thing or putting odd socks on. Does any of it really matter? Does the child mind?

And don't take on wife work. I have never written a Christmas card to my husband's family or friends. That is his job and if presents and cards don't get bought and sent, that's on him (but they do). Guilt and martyrdom tend to play a big role I find.

I was and still am the main organiser and cleaner. My partner does do jobs but I have to delegate them to him, he doesn't really see things that need doing. In a way it works as I do think one person has to be the project manager!

However he is a brilliant dad and shows much more initiative with dd. I'm currently pregnant and feeling rough and he's taken on the bulk of the childcare to be honest.

So I can't say that cleaning ability indicated parenting ability in our case. But I do have a theory that if someone is good with pets they are more likely to be good with children, and he is!

The DH would happily do his share of childcare/cleaning etc in the evenings or weekends if he was home but didn't stop any of the socialising/working late/sports etc that he'd done before

yes this is a regular one. But again, it comes down to martyrdom. The DW won't go out and do activities because of "family time". What man worries about family time? If he wants to go out for a bike ride he goes. If he wants to go to the gym on the way back from work he goes (unless he has to be back to collect kids from nursery). I do an outdoor fitness class which is at various times, but at 8.30 on a Sunday morning. Who on earth wants to get up that early on the one day you might get a bit of a lie-in once your kids are beyond the toddler stage. But all the women who go do, because of the hallowed family time. An hour later really wouldn't matter.

If women want things to change, they've got to stop pandering to all of this.

Also, I still think a lot of women are much fussier than their husbands/male partners. And there is a serious lack of communication too. It's no good dropping hints and expecting things to get done. If you think the lounge needs dusting then say "can you please dust the lounge" or if you think the bathroom needs cleaning, ask your other half to do it. Don't expect telepathy and don't expect them to see what you see
I don't think it is a case of being fussier.

In some situations there are women who want the fridge stocked a certain way, who will complain if the dishwasher isn't loaded their way, and their DH uses the wrong Zoflora scent for the room, but most of what women describe isn't a case of women fussing about how the throw cushions are arranged.

Most of what grinds women down is that there can be a thick layer of dust/a full sink of dishes/the carpet obviously needs vacuuming/the toilet needs bleach and still apparently some men don't see it. They do see it. They just don't care.

Women shouldn't have to give their husbands chores like a teenager. I'd find it such a turn off if I had to tell my husband that the bin needs emptying/the sides need wiping.