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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The posters who always say "Well, what was he like before kids?"

148 replies

PineappleSheep · 03/01/2023 05:47

When an exhausted woman with a crappy husband posts for support and somebody immediately fires the "Well, what was he like before kids?"- immediately dismissing the poster's feelings (probably in the same way her husband does) and implying that she has chosen this path and her crappy husband is somehow her fault.

After being up every night this week with a poorly toddler and being unable to fall back to sleep while my shite husband snores away I'm in moany rant mode

In those first few years of a relationship before children you are just the tidier person. That's it. This is no big deal since your daily burden of responsibility is low anyway. I never felt resentful in the first few years of my relationship. I didn't mind being the main organiser and tidier. It wasn't a problem. I was younger, more positive and less worn down. I had plenty of free time and enjoyed keeping my home clean and tidy.

I never had exposure to the realities of having children, especially young children, since none of my friends or family had them. I was the first of my friends to have children.

During pregnancy I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow to suit the responsibilities of being a parent, as I also would. We both had some growing up to do and I naively assumed that we would both change for the better. I never doubted for second that he wouldn't do this. He was a very mature, sensible and stable person, why wouldn't he be a good parent?

However, once we had a baby it became clear very quickly that I was wrong. I felt blindsided and betrayed by his lack of support in the first year of our child's life. It was all far too much effort for him, despite saying all the right things prior to having a baby. Several years later and the lack of support has caused an absolutely enormous amount of resentment on my side. It's a slow process of repeated let downs and refusals of support that have completely killed any love or desire I had for him. This in turn has pulled us further apart, leading to more and more withdrawal from him. I no longer recognise the man I fell in love with, nor do I bother asking for support anymore. It's not worth the hassle.

Had I known that this would be my experience of having children I would have never had them with him. It is not the life I imagined and it's incredibly lonely. My child is my favourite person and has enhanced my life immeasurably but I will forever feel a sense of guilt and responsibility for lumbering them with a crappy father. I wish for them that he was better, because they deserve it.

I often see posters suggest that women like me see a man, realise how crap he is at cleaning and have kids anyway, simply because we selfishly wanted a baby. As if we have deliberately chosen this path to parenthood. The (simplified) reality is that I feel completely let down and had I known that the amount of hoovering my husband did in the early days of our relationship was an indicator of what's to come, it would never have been like this. I now realise just how important it was and would never maintain a relationship with somebody who didn't pull their weight. Hindsight would have been wonderful.

I am slowly (and finally) putting plans to leave in place, to give my child and I the opportunity for a better and happier life. I have tried to fight for them to have an actively involved father for years, but it is clear that parenthood was too much to ask for my husband. My toddler recently didn't notice that my husband was away for a week and my heart breaks for them. I know that we need to leave. However, leaving feels like an incredibly selfish thing to do too. It's so hard for women trapped in this position to make the decision to leave. We've often been fighting for years for our children to have the stereotypically 'perfect' family life and giving up/realising it's futile is so so hard.

I'll stop waffling now

OP posts:
dottiedodah · 03/01/2023 08:44

Our society is very geared up to a 2.4 dc type of thing.this is still held up as an ideal .many men seem to be resentful if their wife is looking after dc and not running after them.they then seem to switch off and wonder why they get left .michelle Obama wrote an interesting article about not liking barack very much when dc were small and looking after 2 young 'terrorists" while trying to have a career. Things are better now as dc are older.

Regularsizedrudy · 03/01/2023 08:47

I’m sorry you are in a horrible situation op. But I do think there are women who enjoy playing “mum” to these men and then when they are someone’s real mum are surprised the husband still wants that role. I would never ever be in a relationship with someone who didn’t know how to work the cooker for example or do their own washing, but I hear women talk about doing these things for their partners as if it’s somehow endearing. It might be cute for the first 3 years but 15 years in and with a baby suddenly it’s repulsive.

silverclock222 · 03/01/2023 08:47

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 03/01/2023 06:29

Agree. Though even having one child with such men doesn't rouse my sympathies. "Assuming " they will shape up and magically become responsible is a foolish choice.

Agree - you know what they say about assume?

piedbeauty · 03/01/2023 08:47

I disagree. I think that if a man doesn't pull his weight around the house and with adulting when it's only the two of you, he generally doesn't step up and pull his weight after you have a baby. You can see that from all the stories on here.

And the more women who realise this, the better.

Stickytoff · 03/01/2023 08:50

I never understand that logic either @PineappleSheep how it becomes the woman’s fault if the man does not step up or grow in being a parent. The only thing I will say is that if they have shown they won’t do it for the first child then it is absolutely guaranteed that they won’t do it for subsequent children so that should be a massive warning in the situation about the woman have to seriously consider of having more children with him is a good idea. But even that is complex even if he is useless. But ultimately I think it is solely the assholes fault for being an asshole.

applecharlotte12 · 03/01/2023 08:51

I agree OP. And the loaded 'What was he like before you had kids?' question is just another example of internalised misogyny. Shit dad/husband = womans fault for knowing in advance he'd be crap.

MilkyYay · 03/01/2023 08:51

During pregnancy I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow to suit the responsibilities of being a parent, as I also would.

My mum literally spent my teenage years warning me that men never/rarely change. I therefore ran a mile from any guy who didn't pick up after himself/cook a meal/get a proper job after the age of 21.

I think there's this idea that you just avoid the utter wasters and can assume other blokes will turn out alright..... that's not enough. You need to actively look for, and know how to spot, a good man.

Within 2 weeks of my meeting him DH had, as a student, cooked a christmas roast for me & two of his mates. It wasn't perfect. But he did it completely himself, bought the food, found a recipe, prepped everything etc. Now 16 years & two kids later he still does all the cooking at Christmas & for sunday roasts.

He already had a part time job as a student and took on extra shifts over christmas to pay for gifts.

He was applying for post graduate jobs & had a career plan.

We visited his family and he played with his 2 & 4 year old cousins and was really good with them.

You cannot assume a bloke who is a bit lazy/immature at 21 will magically grow out of it.

The good blokes, they are good from the start. Women have such a low bar for men, its why so many get away with being useless. If the wasters couldn't get shag for love nor money they would sort themselves out sharpish.

MilkyYay · 03/01/2023 08:53

Ps. I am not blaming individual women.

But as a sex, collectively, we need to expect more of men.

Oblomov22 · 03/01/2023 09:01

I disagree.

" amount of hoovering my husband did in the early days of our relationship was an indicator of what's to come,"

"I now realise just how important it was and would never maintain a relationship with somebody who didn't pull their weight."

The warning signs were there. You just didn't recognise them. In rare cases, the man changes beyond recognition. This happens rarely. But in most cases the red flags/ warning signs are there, but women don't seem the have the skills/emotional intelligence/maturity to spot them.

Oblomov22 · 03/01/2023 09:03

"I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow".

Why did you assume. I'm sorry but that is a Basic error. You assumed wrongly. You need to accept responsibility for your wrong assumption.

georgarina · 03/01/2023 09:08

Agree OP.

ExDP always did the majority of the cleaning and tidying, was very responsible with helping family (including regular days out with children in his family!), ticked all the boxes.

When DC was born he suddenly just felt no responsibility to do these things anymore. I did all the nights, most of the care, the housework. His family didn't help, acting like he was being unfairly treated with the expectation that he should contribute to family life.

"What was he like before children" - completely different to after. I was as well.

Such an unhelpful, superior, and victim-blaming comment.

MilkyYay · 03/01/2023 09:09

Men basically hate this setup and go along with it very grudgingly on the basis that their OH becomes their mum. It’s a recipe for resentment, breakdown of intimacy and lack of trust.

This isn't true. Lots of men are perfectly happily married engaged parents.

Single parenthood really isn't the ideal. For women with babies/young children it only works because benefits provide a lot of financial assistance and even then, many, many single mothers are poor.

Lanesdown · 03/01/2023 09:14

OP, I agree with every single word you have said. I was in exactly the same boat. My divorce will be final soon and it's just me and my kids now and having got rid of the grown ass 3rd child things are great. Good luck to you.

tillyrainbow · 03/01/2023 09:14

Your post resonated with me so much. It is more or less my life. Just wanted to say thank you for such an honest post, you are doing the right thing for your little one. Sending so much support. Maybe one day I'll be brave enough too!

Thepeopleversuswork · 03/01/2023 09:15

applecharlotte12 · 03/01/2023 08:51

I agree OP. And the loaded 'What was he like before you had kids?' question is just another example of internalised misogyny. Shit dad/husband = womans fault for knowing in advance he'd be crap.

Yes and there's this assumption that a "quality" woman knows how to pick a "quality" man, with the unspoken implication that if you end up with a feckless and useless lump of a man its because your man radar is wonky or you're lying to yourself.

It's also quite hard as an independent woman to find the right "template" for the right man. My dad was a pretty standard 1950s husband in many ways: breadwinner, very career oriented, hardly ever at home. He was a great "provider" but pretty useless at everything else. It sort of worked in the sense that my mum loved the money and the status he brought but was tangibly unhappy not to get the help she needed in the home. I grew up subconsciously aware that I didn't want that kind of marriage and avoided super driven men but I sort of ended up with quite a lot of men whose lack of career ambition didn't have any other outlet aside from computer games and watching football.

It's quite hard to find a happy medium between the very driven, ambitious man who wants to climb the greasy pole and ignore his family and the very unambitious man who in theory could be useful to have around the home and being involved in the family but who didn't channel that well.

NeedToChangeName · 03/01/2023 09:19

piedbeauty · 03/01/2023 08:47

I disagree. I think that if a man doesn't pull his weight around the house and with adulting when it's only the two of you, he generally doesn't step up and pull his weight after you have a baby. You can see that from all the stories on here.

And the more women who realise this, the better.

@piedbeauty I agree with you

LolaSmiles · 03/01/2023 09:23

And the loaded 'What was he like before you had kids?' question is just another example of internalised misogyny. Shit dad/husband = womans fault for knowing in advance he'd be crap
It's a crap thing to say once a woman is already in a rubbish situation.

It's totally fair game to tell women in advance that if a man doesn't do housework/doesn't see mess/spends all his time on his hobbies at the expense of domestic responsibilities/won't do day to day housework but loves an excuse to tinker in the garage or create a DIY project that doesn't need doing etc then:

  • he is showing you that he doesn't think he should do housework
  • he thinks housework is your duty as a woman
  • he isn't bothered that your time is spent running the household
  • a baby isn't going to change him
  • a baby isn't going to make him grow up
  • he is unlikely to do his fair share of active parenting
  • you'll still be doing everything around the house, but with the added mess that children bring

It's equally reasonable to point out loud and clear that if a man is a usess father for one child, likes to find excuses to opt out of family life with one child, has magically found a fancy hobby after baby 1 arrived, then he is absolutely not going to change with baby number 2, or baby number 3. All that happens is same old shit, but wit more children.

Women are not responsible for men's behaviour, ever. But we seriously need to raise the bar on what we accept instead of turning a blind eye and accepting it.

BiasedBinding · 03/01/2023 09:25

Oblomov22 · 03/01/2023 09:03

"I assumed that my husband would adjust and grow".

Why did you assume. I'm sorry but that is a Basic error. You assumed wrongly. You need to accept responsibility for your wrong assumption.

But presumably he assumed she would, and she did. A good job really.

Fridaysgirl17 · 03/01/2023 09:30

My ex partner was fantastic during my first pregnancy, attentive,interested,invested,came to scans,when I had hospital stay due to complications he was there,NICU baby he was there,he was working but he did evening & weekends,he was amazing with our son at the start but our son was almost a year & he got a new job it meant being away a lot but we pottered along,he was good but could be better,we had problems but by then I was expecting baby 2 (surprise baby bet 2 forms of contraception),this was a pandemic pregnancy so I did a lot alone but he looked after our toddler,had our second son & yeah he was a shit,this was 4 years in & 2 kids,I was dealing with my mom having terminal cancer,a newborn,the pandemic & found out he got someone pregnant while I was pregnant,of course I didn't believe it I was so overwhelmed I couldn't take in one more thing,so he stayed & was shit,I struggled with him,no trust,no help l,I was always wrong... But I had my kids to be a family that's what I envisioned but he had other plans,he stopped coming home,said he was working weekends,got a new position etc he was cheating on me while I was at home with our infant & toddler,I knew it but turned a blind eye until he didn't turn up for our son's birthday because he was with her I lost it but we struggled for 2 more months & I finished it,he moved in with her,she was pregnant,he was shit for over a year to us,along with her. Recently he's got access & overnights start soon so we'll see how that goes but OW is pregnant again & he had another child on her too so leopards & spots, so between them they have 8 children,he will have 6 with 4 mother's 🤦🏻‍♀️.
He was amazing before kids,cleaned,cooked did everything but his mask did slip it took a few years but if I'd known I'd never have given my kids him as a father but then again they wouldn't be my beautiful boys if not for him(the one good thing he did) 🙄

FruitTwistandShake · 03/01/2023 09:33

I think sometimes we can fall in to the trap that 'fatherhood will change him'. I met my first partner when I was 16 and I was with him for 11 years. He was a drain - emotionally, financially and mentally! But I was young, naive and immature. He was my first everything so I had no frame of reference to tell him that he was a rubbish boyfriend. I made excuses for him all the time and told myself that once we moved in with each other it would be better - it wasn't. He was the kind of guy who would ignore the things you had done and point out the one thing you hadn't...whilst doing nothing himself.

After 10 years together I fell pregnant, it was not planned but I was 26, financially secure and didn't think it was the worst thing in the world. However, at 17 weeks I miscarried. Not sure I have ever admitted this but the tears I shed were more of relief than anything else. I was of course sad for the baby I had lost but it became increasingly clear that he would have been as shit a dad as he was a boyfriend. A couple of examples of why I knew this - while I was still pregnant he planned a trip away with the boys for the week of my due-date. He told me that I would need to move in to the box room with the baby when it was born so he would not lose any sleep...two of may examples.

I stuck it out for 1 more year after this - more of a strategic move to get money together to leave and start again but I know I made the right choice.

My now DH is an absolutely fantastic dad, he has probably changed more nappies than me and he will jump out of bed at night to let me sleep especially if I have been home with the kids all day. I know I am incredibly lucky to have dodged a bullet but we all deserve a partnership in love and parenting. We are not their mothers. You deserve more!

MilkyYay · 03/01/2023 09:34

But presumably he assumed she would, and she did. A good job really

She probably didn't actually change. She probably just did more of what she was already doing.

WandaWonder · 03/01/2023 09:35

LolaSmiles · 03/01/2023 09:23

And the loaded 'What was he like before you had kids?' question is just another example of internalised misogyny. Shit dad/husband = womans fault for knowing in advance he'd be crap
It's a crap thing to say once a woman is already in a rubbish situation.

It's totally fair game to tell women in advance that if a man doesn't do housework/doesn't see mess/spends all his time on his hobbies at the expense of domestic responsibilities/won't do day to day housework but loves an excuse to tinker in the garage or create a DIY project that doesn't need doing etc then:

  • he is showing you that he doesn't think he should do housework
  • he thinks housework is your duty as a woman
  • he isn't bothered that your time is spent running the household
  • a baby isn't going to change him
  • a baby isn't going to make him grow up
  • he is unlikely to do his fair share of active parenting
  • you'll still be doing everything around the house, but with the added mess that children bring

It's equally reasonable to point out loud and clear that if a man is a usess father for one child, likes to find excuses to opt out of family life with one child, has magically found a fancy hobby after baby 1 arrived, then he is absolutely not going to change with baby number 2, or baby number 3. All that happens is same old shit, but wit more children.

Women are not responsible for men's behaviour, ever. But we seriously need to raise the bar on what we accept instead of turning a blind eye and accepting it.

It might make her think before she goes on to meet the next man to act the same way as the previous one

I am not to blame if another person treats me badly but it would be odd if I kept on letting them do it to me again and against

Holly6547 · 03/01/2023 09:36

Oh OP that sounds so hard. I hope you have some support and can make the decision that’s best for you and your child.

I feel like this sometimes when people talk about having children by a certain age. Sometimes we try to do the right things and it doesn’t work out for us. I dated someone for a while, we talked a lot about what we wanted in life and the specifics of having a child and when we would have one. We got engaged and then married and slowly several years he changed his mind. In the end I found that I had wasted a decade and probably my most fertile years on this man.

I think that sometimes we take credit for successes that are maybe not entirely under our control. And it makes us judge others more harshly than we should.

Flittingaboutagain · 03/01/2023 09:36

The trouble is there is also a cohort of men who were equal partners before baby arrived in every sense.

The changes that come with having a poor sleeper together with a man who struggles to adapt to their new life can also cause the resentments and erosion of the marriage as the OP described.

There is no way to predict if you'll get a baby who can't do more than three hours a night for the first 18 months or whether they'll sleep through from 12 weeks. There's also no way to know if your man can cope well with coming second in your priority list once baby arrives.

KilmordenCastle · 03/01/2023 09:45

But as a sex, collectively, we need to expect more of men

Completely agree with this. The standard for how men should behave is far too low generally. Often, when someone points out that women need to take responsibility for their own choices it is shouted down as being misogynistic and victim blaming. But we have a responsibility to the people that we give birth to.

Imo a lot of people (men and women) underestimate how enormous a responsibility bringing a baby into this world actually is. A baby doesn't choose to be born, if you decide to have one then you should try to ensure that you are providing them with the best life you possibly can. That includes 2 decent parents. Now I completely understand that men can do a complete U turn once a baby is born, and their partner couldn't possibly see it coming. Of course that does happen but in truth it's very rare, usually there are warning signs. But when a woman has a baby with a man who turns out to be a shit father, then chooses to have more children with the shit father, then she should accept responsibility for that poor decision. The man is at fault for being a shit father, no doubt about it. But the woman is not absolved of responsibility because the man is at mainly at fault.