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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

There is no god

1000 replies

OldKingCole · 02/01/2023 19:02

Inspired by another thread … I was surprised by the level of atheism professed … as I always though I was in a tiny, tiny minority.
would be interested to see the MN response.

IABU - there is a god
IANBU - there is no god

OP posts:
Letitrainletitrainletitrain · 02/01/2023 19:28

This reply has been deleted

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Meanwhile you calling atheists nasty smug arseholes, and another poster calling them stupid is not bitchy at all of course

Whydidimarrythis · 02/01/2023 19:28

HoneyIShrunkThePizza · 02/01/2023 19:26

Well to be fair god doesn't solve those problems, s/he only adds another step before you have to answer them. How was god created? What triggered it?

That’s the beauty of the “God” theory - the theory is that God is eternal, so it avoids that problem. Science hasn’t yet come up with any other suggestion that’s less absurd. The answer has to go against the rules of science that we currently have - that’s what smug atheists fail to recognise. The answer to that question has to be completely insane - if it weren’t then we’d know by now.

pharaohrocher · 02/01/2023 19:28

I lean towards atheism but really I'm agnostic because I just can't know one way or another. I definitely don't believe in a traditional Christian god who loves us but I can't discount the idea of some kind of higher power or intelligent design.

Whydidimarrythis · 02/01/2023 19:29

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RocketIceLollie · 02/01/2023 19:29

My bet is whatever it is that happens after death is outside the scope of our brain power to even comprehend.

MayThe4th · 02/01/2023 19:32

I don’t believe in God but it is clear that many people gain comfort from having a faith, and I really don’t understand why some atheists feel the need to be quite so nasty to those who have a faith, accusing them of being less educated, believing in fairy stories etc.

The low education comment is absolutely not true, some of the most highly educated people still have a faith.

Just what is it that you’re afraid of? That maybe you’re wrong?

Because if you were so sure that there isn’t a God then you wouldn’t feel the need to ridicule those who believe that there is, you would just stick to your non beliefs as much as they stick to their beliefs.

Atheists typically don’t like religious people who preach to them, but being so bitter is no different to the preaching of the devoutly religious.

How about you live your life and let other people live theirs. As long as they’re not bothering you why do you care?

UtterlyUnimaginativeUsername · 02/01/2023 19:32

I don't believe there is a god.

I don't know a lot about science, but it seems to me that the universe having been deliberately created by an all-powerful being is unnecessarily complicating things.

I think that any all-powerful being who created the world as it is is unworthy of worship and needs to be returned for a refund, frankly.

The whole history of religion in society strongly suggests to me that it started as stories told by people to explain what they couldn't understand, and power-hungry people took advantage of it and turned it into a tool to control the masses. That seems utterly consistent with what I've seen of humanity.

Whydidimarrythis · 02/01/2023 19:33

Againstmachine · 02/01/2023 19:22

Not really as you said you can't prove a negative, the onus of evidence is on the religious not the atheist.

I don’t think you quite understand how that works. You can’t prove a negative, therefore people insisting that it can’t be with no proof either way are as ignorant as those insisting that it is true with no proof either way. We have no proof either way.

x2boys · 02/01/2023 19:34

Those that have a faith won't just be Christian ,we are a multicultural society these days ,just because people don't identify as a Christian doesn't necessarily make them atheist .

x2boys · 02/01/2023 19:36

Whydidimarrythis · 02/01/2023 19:33

I don’t think you quite understand how that works. You can’t prove a negative, therefore people insisting that it can’t be with no proof either way are as ignorant as those insisting that it is true with no proof either way. We have no proof either way.

Quite this is what I think,.

MayThe4th · 02/01/2023 19:36

Also, I don’t believe that the pole here is representative at all.

This is a deliberately goady thread. Why would anyone with a faith want to come on here and admit that faith to posters who will happily accuse the of being uneducated and believing in fairy stories?

Againstmachine · 02/01/2023 19:36

Whydidimarrythis · 02/01/2023 19:28

That’s the beauty of the “God” theory - the theory is that God is eternal, so it avoids that problem. Science hasn’t yet come up with any other suggestion that’s less absurd. The answer has to go against the rules of science that we currently have - that’s what smug atheists fail to recognise. The answer to that question has to be completely insane - if it weren’t then we’d know by now.

So if we don't believe, it's acceptable for the religious lot to make shit up to prove their view point, just because there isn't any evidence of something doesn't mean god did it.

You may as well say I created universe as there is as much proof as yours.

Creepinglight · 02/01/2023 19:37

Biscuitsneeded · 02/01/2023 19:19

@Creepinglight That's what I'm saying! The propensity to believe in any sort of God declines in accordance with the level of education.

I'm not saying believers are thick. I'm saying that for one reason or another they haven't engaged their critical faculties. I know some lovely religious people. And i know sone absolute tossers who should be embarrassed to represent the faith they profess to follow. Intelligence isn't relevant, but education is.

I’m sorry, but this is a really ignorant and arrogant position. People of faith have not failed to develop critical thinking skills. Most religions, and certainly all the major world faiths, have very strong traditions of thinking critically about their own faith. Judaism is particularly famous for that.

And if we look at secular belief systems, such as the recently developed gender ideology, which is a confused and contradictory belief, even on its own terms, which has no basis in evidence, rationality or science, and where even the academic proponents of it cannot define its key terms and concepts, and yet this ideology is promoted by highly educated people, including people who call themselves humanists and, more laughably, skeptics. So no, your premise that highly educated people are less likely to hold unevidenced beliefs is entirely bogus.

All that has happened is that religious beliefs have fallen out of vogue for a section of educated people to whom being ‘highly educated’ is part of their internal self-identity. However other unevidenced beliefs are in fashion for them, such as gender ideology, and they hold these beliefs uncritically.

My personal view is that this can be explained through the best explanation I have heard for the formation of religious belief. Which is that it formed as human societies moved to larger communities, not longer just based around family bonds. This required a set of overarching beliefs to hold these communities together. You see the same thing happening with secular belief systems. They hold people together in a social bond of belonging. The function of social bonding, thanks to the shared belief, is more important than a hard evidence base justifying the belief. It’s the function of the belief that is important, not the evidence for it.

At least religious are more honest about that. They are open about being based on faith, on belief. I have more respect for that than secular systems of belief which make claims to objective truth they cannot defend with evidence.

Spect8 · 02/01/2023 19:37

Brought up Catholic, but like a pp am quite prepared to say NO to organised religion of any hue. I can feel spritual out in nature and things like that, but not in a god that does all the things Stephen Fry outlined. Too far out for me!

I'm many years non practising now, but what is this "free will" concept anyway? Is it a neat way of not answering probing questions about a non benevolent god or what? I should know of course, and it rings a bell, but long forgotten now.

And I am heartily sick and tired of the organised religions that treat women as second class citizens or put them in homes, or allow them a place in the (Catholic) church but mainly to clean the church. You won't see any men doing that menial work, they are in their dresses pontificating from the altar. No I won't accept that ever.

peachgreen · 02/01/2023 19:37

I felt weird voting YABU because I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all. I believe there is a God but I think it’s weird that I believe that, and I also think organised religion of all kinds is a sham
and a bad thing.

Againstmachine · 02/01/2023 19:38

Whydidimarrythis · 02/01/2023 19:33

I don’t think you quite understand how that works. You can’t prove a negative, therefore people insisting that it can’t be with no proof either way are as ignorant as those insisting that it is true with no proof either way. We have no proof either way.

Nope but just because I can't prove something I don't make some outlandish story to try to.

BrownEyedGhoul · 02/01/2023 19:38

ErrolTheDragon · 02/01/2023 19:19

The 2021 census had less than 50% identifying as Christian, 46%. The next largest group was 'no religion' at 37%.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

A 'social attitudes' survey, which I think asks more detailed questions and so may elicit somewhat more considered responses had over 50% saying they had no religion

https://bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39293/1bsa366_religion.pdf

There are atheist Christians and atheist Jews and atheist Muslims. For a lot of people religion is cultural, it doesn't actually mean that you believe in a god or any of it.

Sunnytwobridges · 02/01/2023 19:39

Actually I'm surprised that there are so many atheists on MN. But I live in the south in the US and religion is still big here. I will admit I'm agnostic and have been since I was a kid. I've seen and experienced too much to know for sure there's a god. But I'm not completely sure there isn't one either.

FourTeaFallOut · 02/01/2023 19:39

That’s the beauty of the “God” theory - the theory is that God is eternal, so it avoids that problem

I'd say that was just a logical cul-de sac. I'm happy to tell you that I don't know the scientific origin story of the universe but I don't think the lack of knowledge needs to be filled with narrative. I don't believe in God/ God's. But I'm not invested in whether you agree with me or not.

Whydidimarrythis · 02/01/2023 19:39

Againstmachine · 02/01/2023 19:36

So if we don't believe, it's acceptable for the religious lot to make shit up to prove their view point, just because there isn't any evidence of something doesn't mean god did it.

You may as well say I created universe as there is as much proof as yours.

Yes. It is just as acceptable for someone with no proof to make up anything. There’s just as much proof that they’re right as there is that you’re right. You’re just as likely to be wrong. People are entitled to make up literally any theory they like and it’s baffling how upset atheists get about that fact.

ILoveeCakes · 02/01/2023 19:40

I don't care about what you believe. I want to know what you can prove.

BrownEyedGhoul · 02/01/2023 19:40

Whydidimarrythis · 02/01/2023 19:33

I don’t think you quite understand how that works. You can’t prove a negative, therefore people insisting that it can’t be with no proof either way are as ignorant as those insisting that it is true with no proof either way. We have no proof either way.

No, but all the other things we have zero proof of either way we tend to stick very much to the not true unless you prove it true method. Why is religion on an easier standard?

DoctorManhattan · 02/01/2023 19:41

I visited the Vatican recently. I’m not the slightest bit religious but we were in Rome and I thought I’d like to go see it, as a tourist attraction if nothing else. All I could think as I walked round it and balked at the opulence - the gold, the priceless artifacts, the art, the splendour everywhere - was that if Jesus was real, surely all of this hoarding of billions of pounds worth of assets was the exact opposite of what he had preached.

Organised religion was all about control, back in the days when it was closely linked to the monarchies and ruling bodies of various countries. As democracy and politics has grown, those links have devolved but religious organisations have found a new niche instead: they are now extremely profitable institutions which can make the most of their tax exemption status and be run as a lucrative business.

I don’t believe God ever existed but even if he did, he hasn’t been around for a long time - there’s way too much tragedy and brutality in this world to believe anyone divine is overseeing it. Strangely, the volume of visions and miracles and all that magical stuff in the bible have reduced over the years almost proportionally to the level of education and scientific awareness of the average modern man, I wonder why.

PoinsettiaPosturing · 02/01/2023 19:41

@IveHadEnoughNowFfs has linked the exact same video I would always refer to. God is an evil fucker if he exists

LanceandBecky · 02/01/2023 19:41

There are no gods. No fate. No prayers are answered.

Your personality is your brain, and when you're dead, you're gone.

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