There is no god

[OldKingCole]

Inspired by another thread … I was surprised by the level of atheism professed … as I always though I was in a tiny, tiny minority.
would be interested to see the MN response.

IABU - there is a god
IANBU - there is no god

I do wonder sometimes what it is that people who believe are believing in? What is the thing they call ‘god’ that they are believing in that isn’t described by confusing word salad. How do they think the world would be different if this ‘thing called god’ didn’t exist (ie how can we tell the difference between there being a god and there not being a god).

But even if you find the natural world gives you meaning that is still a why?

It's a very different sort of 'why' - it's one which is emergent rather than the primary cause types of 'why' posited by religious types.

I guess that the thing, we derive meaning from our lives based on love. To Christians God is love. It is something bigger than us, it overrides survival instinct at times, it can lead us to be willing to sacrifice ourselves for the saving of others.

1 John 4:7-21
English Standard Version
God Is Love

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Now who or what God is, is open to question. I love the words Blake used in one of his letters to Crabb Robinson

”Jesus Christ is the only God and so am I and so are you” to Blake Jesus was imagination. We create. That’s the ultimate meaning of life for me.meaning doesn’t need to be found in supernatural powers we all have the kingdom of God within us
In Luke 17:20–21, Jesus says, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (NKJV).

Sorry, I’m being a bit thick(not unusual) could you please explain?

This is only a question if you believe in a personal God which controls the minutia of peoples lives and that his purpose of creation corresponds to our own needs and priorities.

A popular theory or philosophy is that God created the universe in order to experience itself. Itself containing every conceivable event, shape, time, emotion etc. this would include what we see as bad as well as good. Within this philosophy pain is as equally valid as joy from Gods perspective.

To think a Christian God is all fluffy lambs is an mis- selling - he left his son to die a most painful death on a literal reading of the Bible because it had a bigger purpose. Fluffy lamb God is a fairly modern invention.

if you consider, for example Gnostic Christian thought (as we now refer to this collection of Christian philosophies), they considered the creation of the physical as some kind of punishment, something unGodly. All physical creation was evil saved by a piece of divinity with each of us).

God is supposed to be ineffable, hence the “confusing word salad”, the symbols and allegory. If anything God is something to be experienced, connection through rituals, meditation/prayer/exploration. Now you can put a system round that, either to enhance your own exploration or communicate it to others (usually most effectively through symbolism and allegory which allude to and (re)awaken something in the subconscious). Or you can create a system to use God to enslave others.

in the words of Blake

”I must create my own system or be enslaved by another man’s, I will not reason and compare, my business is to create”

For me god is something beyond us and within us.

I must once again jump in here OMG12. Your use of "Gnostic Christian thought" is a misnomer. Gnosticism and Christianity are mutually exclusive and, as you've previously joked, come with a whole host of heretical theories and beliefs.

@Vincitveritas they're only heretical to people who believe as you do though. To the rest of us they're best viewed as 'possibilities'.

Hi there. Yes of course these were heretical beliefs, the question here is not Walmart is accepted as God in the established church, but a wider question of what is god. Given the presence of god(s) and goddesses across time and space it makes sense to view the concept outside the confines of Christianity as authorised by the established church. Of course the established church views Gnostics as heretics- hence the Albigensian crusades “kill them all God will know his own” What if God knew his own and it was the Catholics who ended up burning in hell? But for me Christianity is simply a framework, another way to understand the source.

Now were Gnostics Christian? Their views varied quite a lot from what are now the generally accepted mainstream Christian beliefs. Scholars generally accept that various Gnostic sects were part of early Christian and Jewish groups. These diverged as time went on. Both groups believed in Jesus (although some groups potentially saw him as a spiritual not corporeal character and based their teachings on him. This analysis is helpful I think.

I think the problem I have with religion is god is most people who believe seem to very much see him as a personal god, hence prayers, gods ‘plan’ for you, trust in god etc This is what I find so bizarre and can’t buy in to.

In god, not is god.

Then it’s people you have an issue with, not god, whatever that is. Ignore what others think, what does it mean to you

Then it’s people you have an issue with, not god, whatever that is. Ignore what others think, what does it mean to you

That's pretty much where I stand. I choose to believe that there isn't a god because doing so makes my life better. I have no issues with deities themselves. I do have major issues with what people do in the name of the deities they believe in, or claim to believe in.

Personally I just don’t believe. I don’t believe in the supernatural and that includes god. There hasn’t been any reason for me to believe and it comes down to the stale old I don’t think he’s any more real than Santa or the tooth fairy.

And that’s fine. Maybe your god isn’t supernatural but the kingdom of god is still within. Maybe god is a part of you. Maybe your spiritual journey is to realise that.

I’m not spiritual and don’t have any god.

'And that’s fine. Maybe your god isn’t supernatural but the kingdom of god is still within. Maybe god is a part of you. Maybe your spiritual journey is to realise that.'

Maybe people are perfectly happy knowing there is no 'god', and that 'spirituality' can be anything.
The pagans got their 'spirtuality' from nature and the seasons. Not that they would call it that. Then Christian came along and started using the pagan calendar, seasons and festivals to promote their religion.
Jesus wasn't born in December... the winter solstice in December was used as the time of his 'birth' to preach to the non- believers

Maybe people are perfectly happy knowing there is no 'god', and that 'spirituality' can be anything.

I think what's often referred to as 'spirituality' is some sort of evolved trait which people may have to different extents - including none. We used to joke that I was our dog's goddess ...

There's some intriguing (though not as yet always very convincing) neuroscience - it's an early stage but the idea that it really is 'all in the mind' is reasonable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscienceoff_religion

Personally- I was raised in a Christian family. I was a believer, I had 'spiritual experiences' ... but at some point I was faced with the question of whether it was actually true or not. I wanted to carry on believing (I really loved the church 'family') - but it was simply impossible. Realising it was all a fiction was liberating, the world made so much more sense.

I don’t think you understood my post

I believe in God.

Forgot to say

I do not engage with those who want to argue / debate about whether or not God is real
God is real to me. It is as simple as that

There is lots of evidence for one side and none for the other.

for me the why is so much more important than the how.

And that may be the crux of why you have gone down this route of supernatural belief with no evidence whatsoever to substantiate it: because you cannot accept that nature - that we are just one part of - exists, and there is no reason to believe there is any "why". It just happened. If you want a meaning, that's not delusional and invented, you need to create it for yourself, within all thw limitations that being a human being creates. I'd thoroughly recommend readying some Sartre and Camus. Aristotle also helps but in a very different way as he was obviously an ancient so still had some delusional beliefs with no proof but his theory of virtue ethics and temperance, can explain a lot about how you can understand a life to have value in itself, for its own sake, without the need to appeal to imaginery beings.

But to have faith surely you have to read the complete book. And after reading, should follow years of study. This would inform and spur on faith rather than a general feeling of faith.

Or, lead a rational person to abandon it as unsustantiated conjectures designed go control people that have done far more harm than good, if you care to read some history books.

I respect your perspectives, it's more the fact that due to humans writing and editing the various religion s texts, that basically means none can be trusted as the perspectives of the gods they are.ment to represent