Tory voters are hypocrites to complain about the state of the NHS

[Kendodd]

Wtf did they think they were voting for? The Tories have NEVER left the NHS in a better state when they left office than it was in when they came to power.

inews.co.uk/news/politics/tory-voters-believe-government-failed-nhs-education-austerity-poll-suggests-2058898

Health co-pay for well-off seniors could be charged on their previous tax year figures, so always lagging a year behind: I'd be charged for 22-23 on my 21-22 tax return. Then it wouldn't need means testing. You could avoid @Blossomtoes legitimate objection by splitting NIC into pension contributions purely by age but levying health tax as a separate figure over a threshold so it effectively becomes a hypothecated tax.

Still not convinced that the NHS is the best or most efficient way of delivering health care. If it's so wonderful, why haven't other countries copied it?

Re Brexit referendum, my 2 cents worth is that it should have taken place in 1992 after Maastricht when the choice could have been between continuing in the EEC or joining the EU with its ambitions to federalise Europe.

I’m not sure about the why haven’t others copied it point. After all we can see how hard it is for us to change direction, it’s hard for other countries to change too for many reasons. Having said that what changed in the US with increase in free at point of service medical care for some?

Also not sure about pensioners paying more if it hits higher payers who have been lower users through their lifetime.

Social care is a mess but I don’t get the message it’s cheap to use, some sell their asset to fund it. Is it the expense from those who can’t which makes it difficult

Also I don’t think we need to reinvent, but you can emulate. Take nominal charges which are the norm elsewhere - these can be added easily but I don’t think it would get the votes in the U.K.

So the relevant response for floating voters or Labour supporters (in non-safe seats) would be to say they didn't find Corbyn under Labour appealing. But what actually happens is Tories posting saying "Corbyn would be worse" which isn't the same thing at all. OPs point still stands - it was already obvious at the last election the direction of travel on the NHS from Tories.

I don’t see much difference between not finding someone appealing or thinking they would have been worse. Not sure why anyone would worry about splitting hairs to that extent. He didn’t get the votes and featured in many voters reasons why not.

That’s a lesson learnt for Labour. No need to hide from it, Starmer seems to have got the message and has distanced himself.

Re NHS at last election you’re better off looking at what the top concerns were at the time if you want to know why it went badly.

But OPs point stands - it's ludicrous for anyone who voted Tory last time to be complaining - this is literally what they voted for - more and more ideological austerity.
All the commentary on Corbyn and Labour is nonsense - blaming Corbyn and Labour for not being Tory enough to get elected doesn't make any sense. It really isn't their fault the Tories are doing what they are doing - that's down to the Tories.

I’m not complaining as I don’t think Labour will fix it.

And yes if people go on about how people voted in last election Labour supporters should acknowledge their leader was actually there and part of result. They get annoyed though at the suggestion. But hey ho, like I say even if people on here get irate, Starmer has learned from the failure and acknowledged how bad it was. Hence the shift away from the left.

It’s a blind spot for some when they go in about ‘not Tory enough’ though.

On the contrary, YOU are the one STILL performing mental gymnastics here.

The Conservatives can put a referendum in their manifesto, but it is NOT binding whatsoever. And is irrelevant without Westminster MPs voting to have such a referendum.

It is Parliament and not the Government that is the Supreme Legislator and Authority.

Parliament COULD have defeated it had Labour, Lib Dem, Plaid, DUP, UUP, etc, all voted against holding such a referendum with the SNP. All those parties made it 100% possible for the UK to hold a referendum on EU membership. It wasn't down to just the one party, you know. 🤦‍♂️

But you can just go back to your mental gymnastics if you like.....🤷‍♂️

Labour have been ambivalent about the Common Market, the EEC and the EU. By no means all Labour members are enamoured of Brussels, even now.

And this floating voter, who had a very sensible Labour candidate locally (and an uninspiring incumbent) was sufficiently put off by the Labour Front bench of the time to shilly shally with a LibDem vote.

@DownNative Tories gave the referendum Parliamentary time.

Without such time, would never have been a debate or a vote.

All your various emoji's & cap locks wont change that very simple fact ... the tory party in Govt did that.

I freely admit MPs across the chamber voted for it and said so earlier, not sure why your re still contesting that.

Putting an issue up for Parliamentary debating time is one thing, but it is a long, long way from actually enacting a Bill to hold a referendum on EU membership.

That's clear, but oddly you seem to think that's where it ends - at introducing a debate issue. 🤦‍♂️

No, it took more than the Conservatives to enact the Bill To Hold A Referendum on EU Membership. Only the SNP voted against.

Labour didn't. Indeed, Labour had a three line whip in 2017 under Corbyn in order to defeat an amendment to keep the UK in the EU SM and CU.

Once again, it took more than the Conservatives to do all of this. That's the reality.

So, introducing a debate in Parliament is one thing and winning it is another altogether. You cannot change this fact.

No more mental gymnastics, eh?! 🤷‍♂️

@MarshaBradyo Since you ask about US healthcare (Disclaimer: in the 80s, I worked for a non-profit that provided health insurance), there has been free healthcare for the unemployed and the elderly since the 1930s (MediCare/MedicAid) but it's a supermarket own brand value equivalent, and it doesn't offer anything other than very basic care. Anyone working in a professional job will have major medical/surgical cover through employer arranged insurance; these are usually fairly generous and account for the world class quality of the best American medicine, but you will pay the first $500 of charges each year.

It's bleaker for the small tradespeople and the self-employed, for whom private health insurance is prohibitive and it was them the Deomcrats were targeting with their promises to reform health care. Obamacare delivered part of the solution but the Republicans are hellbent on undoing it, being ideologically opposed to socialist medicine.

That said, there are quite large Health Maintenance Organisations that are similar to the NHS that some employers, mainly educational institutions, charities and not-for-profits, offer their staff as an alternative option. The greater NY one I belonged to was founded in 1935, so predated the NHS by 12 years. Apologies if TMI.

@DownNative Like i said, without the parliamentary time, they'd have been no vote, nothing else would have mattered.

The Tories gave us brexit, they let the genie out of the bottle, its on them.

Lets move on, we will never agree on this & the thread isn't about 2016, its about a Govt that doesn't believe in accountability.

@XingMing interesting. Good to here an alternative view point.

Is that the Tories trying to distance themselves from Brexit 😂
I bet the right wing press will be jumping on that bandwagon at some point. Already poor people get blamed for Brexit, completely ignoring the masses of well heeled home counties pensioners who voted Leave. I wonder how long itll be before were told Brexit was all labour's fault? And unfortunately, plenty of the electorate will be stupid enough to believe it.

Yes Labours fault we haven't built more nuclear power stations, Labours fault the NHS is fucked because of PFI, now Labours fault for Brexit because they voted for it and with their votes it never would have happened.

Parliament COULD have defeated it had Labour, Lib Dem, Plaid, DUP, UUP, etc, all voted against holding such a referendum with the SNP.
This is just factually incorrect. The Tories had an overall majority of 10 (11 with the speaker). That means if all the Tories voted for it (usually enabled by a 3 line whip if needed), they couldn't be outvoted - this is how our parliament works.
You either don't grasp this or are deliberately ignoring it.

I often think, people advocating an insurance type system must have never had the joy of trying to make in insurance claim. Try to make a claim and the very first thing the insurance company do is look for any possible way they can get out of paying it. I have had to go through a full complaints procedure twice to get insurance companies to just do what they are contracted to do. I also have private health insurance through my husbands work (I wouldn't pay for it, I would much, much rather just pay more tax). It's shit. I tried to make a claim for an operation once and the number of hoops they made us jumps through first was ridicules. If you think the NHS is wasteful what until you have to deal with private insurance admin. Although I suppose you could argue, private insurance saves money because of the number of claims they refuse.

Never had a problem making a claim. Sounds as though the policy was rubbish - blame your husband's employer.

Tory voters are also hypocrites for complaining about the state of council public services (bin collections, potholes etc) when public sector cutbacks are exactly what they've been voting for, for at least the last decade. But the times I've pointed that out to my very Tory family, the excuse is always 'but we didn't want THOSE serviced cut back'. They want the ones they don't use (or staff wages) to be cut. I don't care if the truth hurts, this is true.

Well the below post would be why social care is knackered, because council budgets have been cut.

Still, I dare say someone will join the dots when they have to care for their own - or pay.

Ultimately most Tory voters will only see things that have a direct benefit to them. And so here we are, with knackered public services and half a fantasy about global Britain.

You can only hope they made money and can insulate themselves.

Totally agree. The Tories opposed its inception and have tried to get rid of the NHS ever since.
It’s very disheartening to read the comments on here saying it’s nothing to do with the Tories, it’s the population increase, it was like this under Labour etc.
None of that is true, it has been deliberately starved of funds until it can no longer function, so then everyone gets fed up of it and accepts privatisation. The plan looks like it’s working reading many comments!
It may be difficult to remember but under New Labour (not a fan of them but…) there were targets that were hit in all areas, 4 hour A&E wait, 2 week cancer pathways, surgery waits of 3 months. It came out as one of the top year after year in independent studies worldwide as one of the most efficient and effective health care systems in the world. Now look at it. Everyone knows it’s purposeful underfunding that has got it into this mess.

I believe it's down to process inefficiencies across all functions within the NHS, resource issues, fragmentation across trusts and not enough alignment, not enough infrastructure and it needs a digitalisation injection.

By process inefficiencies, I don't mean the people performing the processes are inefficient, I mean the processes themselves are antiquated and need massive review to see where we can remove unnecessary steps, add improvements and allocate resource to where it's most needed.

It's like any big organisation, you can throw as much cash at is as you like but if it's not running efficiently then it means fuck all.

I've said this before but this is a big part of my actual job and I'd love to get my hands on the NHS and break it down into functions, do some SIPOC's, review processes and see where efficiencies could be made. Oh to get my hands on their quality systems!

There are different ways of funding healthcare but the reality is the Tory party have dismissed those less individuated systems like copay or standard insurance because their supporters will make far more money on a insurance system which ranks your health as an individual.

Most people in the UK will never be high earners. 10 percent are estimated to a good diet. 60 per cent of the population are overweight or obese. They are getting old.

Try getting insurance if you are old, fat and eat a poor diet. It will make you wince. Add a poor genetic history and some chronic condition, maybe on minimum wage or benefits.

You would be absolutely screwed financially. So if most are stupid enough to say they don't want free healthcare at the point of use, they are like turkeys voting for Christmas.

And if they do throw cash at it, they should throw the cash at some quality and process experts to go in and do what I've mentioned above.

Then once running super efficient, there will be much less quality related costs and administration therefore this would free up costs elsewhere to pay the actual staff more money.

Just giving everyone a pay rise won't solve the problems internally.