Men in women’s spaces

[BrightSaturn]

Just using this to rant really…

2 times in the past month I have encountered men in women only spaces.

1. I went to a feeding room to breastfeed my daughter in a shopping centre. I walked in and there were two young women in there changing their babies and one of their boyfriends just taking up one of the only chairs just sitting there, sitting using his phone. It’s a small room with 3 chairs in. I didn’t know what to do so I thought I’ll just sit down and get ready slowly and hopefully they’ll leave. I have fed in public but this was a small room so I felt vulnerable and like he shouldn’t be there and I didn’t want to lift my top up whilst he was sitting basically opposite me so I eventually asked if he could leave the room, they looked annoyed but thankfully he did go, after she looked at him and said “it’s up to you”…
2. I went into a changing room in a shop the other day with my mum, imagine a big room with seats in the middle and curtained dividers all round the outside. My mum was only trying on cardigans so really she just needed a mirror but in the middle on a seat was a boy about 17/18 years old. His girlfriend was trying on clothes. I couldn’t believe it! It wasn’t even doors on the changing rooms, just curtains. Why he thought this was acceptable I have no idea. Again I felt vulnerable and this time I didn’t have the confidence to ask him to leave. If my mum had been actually changing I would have probably found a shop assistant but still it’s not fair that we have to ask them to leave, he should not have been there in the first place!

aibu to think women’s spaces are being invaded more and more? How can we stop this from happening?

Oh I see that part of Mumsnet has leaked out again.

The part where women discuss feeling vulnerable undressing in front of strange men?
Is there a special section of Mumsnet for this, then?

When society is told that special men can use women’s spaces, some men take this to mean that all men can use women’s spaces. Because what is the fundamental difference between these special men and other men that justifies this special treatment?

As can be seen on this thread, it’s not just a small number of men who think there should be no barrier to them accessing women’s spaces. They are often assisted and encouraged by women. This is a consequence of the push for men with special feelings to be able to access women’s spaces. I’m beginning to wonder if it is an unintended consequence, or part of the plan all along. (Queer theory and all that.)

Men using women’s toilets is something my sisters have noticed happening in recent years that they never noticed previously. It has only happened occasionally but the thing that stood out to them was the air of entitlement the men exuded. They either didn’t consider women may have been made uncomfortable by their presence or they didn’t care. I think, unfortunately, this sort of scenario is likely to occur more and more often.

@Simonjt the OP didn’t mention a deluxe space like that in John Lewis and I think you know 99% of feeding spaces are not kitted out as you describe. Taking away all the additional extras you have listed, why do you think men should be allowed in to a private space primarily for women breastfeeding babies? In fact take everything else out of the equation, if it’s a room with a sign on the front saying Breastfeeding Room do you think men should still be allowed in there?

YADNBU. I'm not sure WTF the shop was doing putting chairs in the changing rooms instead of outside them, but young men (and older men) definitely shouldn't be in there. I would have left too. DD16 now refuses to go into any public changing rooms because there may be men/hidden cameras there. She's right. I'm not sure why you're being criticised or labelled transphobic on here. These are entitled idiots who aren't parenting, they just don't think women should have their own spaces.

Your husband would have made me feel very uncomfortable had I come across him in the feeding / breastfeeding area. My dh was also very supportive of breastfeeding. Doesn’t mean he thought it appropriate to populate spaces designed for this purpose.

@Crunchyb @Igmum whilst I totally agree with you I think it’s derailing the thread re trans women and changing rooms. The OP’s focus is on men who identify as men in places they shouldn’t be. I think that’s actually a much more fundamental question and whilst I understand the crossover between the two issues I think much more focus needs to be on the internalised misogyny that leads adult women to be either unable or unwilling to operate independently of a man in the most basic social functions.

This.

Can't you see the difference between breastfeeding and bottle feeding in terms of how much privacy someone might want?

You can take it from this man that most decent men are with the OP. It's not "man-hating" to want some privacy from the opposite sex when in a state of semi-undress. I've no idea how you made the leap to "transphobe" - are you trying out for the Olympics?

At the very least, he should have asked the OP when she entered whether she wanted some privacy.

Not sure if it was John Lewis, but my DH once went into the baby changing area in John Lewis to change a nappy, and there were women in there breastfeeding. He said one looked like she was still learning and so was having to strip off a bit. He was really uncomfortable but it was the baby changing area and he needed to change a shitty nappy so he just got on with it as quickly as possible and darted out! I think it probably depends on how the room was labelled. Was it a 'feeding room' or just a changing area with some chairs for feeding?

@Zatroya but no one of either sex needs privacy to feed a baby with a bottle, do they? Breastfeeding women overwhelmingly prefer the option of privacy

Or adult men to be unable to function if out of reach of an adult woman? Agree this isn't about transwomen so the transphobia comments are just a bit paranoid

@Trez1510 That you can't understand why a woman would feel uncomfortable with her boob out in front of a man shows you're a male with male privilege and very femphobic and misogynistic. Your hatred of women comes through very clearly.

Is it deluxe? I’m yet to find a parents room that isn’t like that, some also have toilets in with the wall harness so you can have a wee in relative peace with a toddler. A parents room isn’t primarily for breastfeeding babies, its for parents (or nannies, childminders, grandparents etc) to use when they are out and about with children. Unless it says ‘breastfeeding women’ on the entrance, then it isn’t just a space for women, it would also either lead to mums with access issues only being able to leave home with another woman, or forced to feed their children in a toilet. Disabled mums do exist you know, why should they be excluded from a breastfeeding room?

@Simonjt i think you’ve gone off on a bit of tangent there to avoid answering either of the reasonable and straightforward questions I have asked you. Of course disabled mums shouldn’t be excluded, but what’s that got to do with men in feeding spaces? Do you not agree with safe single sex spaces for women, disabled and otherwise?

Men feed babies as well you know, they don’t just starve in our care, feeding spaces are for parents/carers not just mums. If it doesn’t say women on the door, it isn’t a single sex space, just as it isn’t if it doesn’t say men on the door.

What about in post-Labour wards in hospitals? Men are allowed there. Because they are parents and as a society it’s in our interests that both parents are equally involved in the upbringing of our children. It’s a good thing for women if the dads are involved too.

@Blackandwhites there have been plenty of threads on these boards over the years complaining about men on maternity wards. Not only on the subject of privacy, but because many of them are quite disruptive, playing noisy games on their phones and so on. Most hospital wards have strict visiting hours so that patients can get some rest. I don't see why maternity wards should be different.

Spending a few hours snoozing in a chair next to your partner's bed isn't exactly the make-or-break moment for an involved father.

@Simonjt but men don’t breastfeed babies do they? They will be feeding them with a bottle. Do you think men feeding babies with a bottle require the same level of privacy as a breastfeeding woman would likely desire?
Also, as you are engaging with me, you still haven’t answered my previous two questions. I’d be interested to hear your direct answers to those questions.

Regarding whether it says men or women on the door, regardless of what it says, most companies allow everyone to use the toilets/rooms they most identify with.

If you want to be sure if a space is single sex, you'd have to ask the company, because some of them aren't honestly signing their facilities

He was doing nothing wrong by being in the parenting room with his baby and partner, but he should have left graciously when asked.

But, as PPs have pointed out, you don't need a specific feeding/parents room, to bottle feed. It's not just a choice between a parents room, or starvation, is it? There are other options in between. Like a cafe, or a bench or one of the many other seats in shopping areas. A new, or just shy/self conscious/struggling breastfeeding mother, has fewer options, and needs that seat in the private room more than either a bottle feeding parent, or a bloke on his phone does.
It's just basic courtesy.

@finnmcool but you can only breastfeed if you have breasts that produce milk. I am aware a very small percentage of people with breasts who feed infants prefer a different nomenclature but the fact remains you have to have glands that lactate to feed a baby yourself, otherwise you would have to use a bottle. What’s the difficulty with those people feeding their babies from their bodies having privacy to do that away from men?

Of course bottle fed babies need somewhere comfortable, calm and generally quiet (as does the person feeding them) to be fed, just as they need a bottle warming, a nappy changing etc.

You can clearly see I have answered them, so I’m not sure why you’re asking again?

@Simonjt Disabled mums do exist you know, why should they be excluded from a breastfeeding room?

A disabled mum is a mum. A woman. So of course she belongs there. An abled man or disabled man, doesn't.

A bottle fed baby can be fed literally ANYWHERE. The same is not true for a breastfed baby. If you can't see the difference between pulling your boob out, and a bottle, you are beyond reasoning with.