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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sorry. Another Andrew Tate thread

198 replies

JusteanBiscuits · 29/12/2022 10:08

Having been following the Greta / Tate stuff on a number of different sites (and cheering Greta on so hard!) I see time and time again men (and yes it's men) posting about how if they were allowed their masculinity, Tate wouldn't have the fans but they get told that masculinity is toxic, how it's been taken away from them, how they are an "underclass".

What exactly has been taken away from men?!

As far as I can tell, Tate followers don't like the fact that women will no longer put up with being second class. Won't put up with being harassed or sexually assaulted. Are willing to stand up for themselves and be counted.

Are this section of men really so very weak that they are so threatened by this?

OP posts:
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8
HowzAboutIt · 29/12/2022 14:25

SnitterBug · 29/12/2022 12:50

I thought he was banned from the internet ? Out of interest some links to sites where he spouts his stuff would be
Appreciated . I would like to read what he says out of curiosity.

How can he be "banned from the internet"

He isnt 10

pictoosh · 29/12/2022 14:26

He is just a fucking bellend isn't he? Loud and proud the head of a penis.
Dearie me.

FloydPepper · 29/12/2022 14:30

ShowOfHands · 29/12/2022 11:55

I'd like to write him off as a disgusting, misogynistic incel but working in a secondary school - where we've had to ban discussion of him - I see firsthand how the idolisation of him is shaping some young men. They aren't mature enough to understand the nuances and the younger students see it as great fun, almost a delicious disobedience, but it takes hold. The older students don't shout his name and laugh, they mutter it and turn their self loathing on their female peers. It's dangerous. He's dangerous.

This
he plays to an audience that feel they are being told they can’t be men, can’t be masculine, are losing out. A pp said secure men are supportive of women and see women’s gain is not men’s loss. His audience don’t have the ability (intelligence? Emotional range? Maturity?) to see this.

I worry that there is a risk here. Demonising masculinity as toxic, without taking great care to bring (a certain type of) men on that journey gives a space for people like him to exploit.

Burgoo · 29/12/2022 14:38

@JusteanBiscuits "What exactly has been taken away from men?!"

This is going to take some explaining! Firstly (full disclosure) I am a bisexual man, I was gay for years then met a woman. I am in a good profession, earning decent money and have a degree of middle-classness. I am as far from Tate as one can imagine, in fact I despise people like him because he sows division and hate within a society that is already rather unpleasant.

That said, I have spoken to MANY men over the years who believe much of what Tate says, in my professional life. A few themes always came up:

  1. Some men feel they have no "role" any longer. Whereas women can now do any range of things (and rightly so), some men feel pushed out. They don't have the status and their "breadwinning" days are long gone. Women can do everything men can do, men are often degraded for being stay at home parents etc.

  2. White men (straight particularly) are seen as "the most privileged" and it simply isn't reflected in their everyday experience. They are stuck on council estates, in dead end jobs, paying into a system and getting nothing out, no housing, no benefits, no compassion or empathy for how hard things are.

  3. They see other groups (not straight white and male) having a good moan about how awful things are for them and when they try to raise a genuine grievance it is often shouted down. They are told they are "privileged" and to "stop complaining, the patriarchy benefits you" and they think "that's bullshit, look at how shit my life is!"

  4. Male suicide rates, alcoholic/drug addiction, sexual harassment/assault, perceived unfairness in court proceedings, work related accidents/deaths, perceived unfair housing practices of LAs etc all get widely ignored and that fuels their HUGE amounts of anger.

  5. This is the big one that people overlook - some men think that they get told to be "nice, kind, caring" and that "looks don't matter". Yet they see women getting with "bad" guys who treat them bad and they think "this is all bullshit, it's stacked against me".

  6. Some men perceive that to be "masculine" is to be seen as "bad". Everything about them is "toxic" and needs to be purged from society. They are endlessly told that they need to show emotions, yet not the ones that get them in trouble. They take this message as being told if they are masculine they are fundamentally "wrong" and "evil" and "toxic".

That is the feeling I've gotten talking to HUNDREDS of men who have been in either prison services or radicalised - in a nutshell. They genuinely believe that the world has swung the opposite direction and that it is now stacked against them. They believe that whilst everyone else has gotten more rights they have seen a decrease in their overall worth and they aren't happy (who would be!)

The problem is that there is a kernel of truth in EVERY perspective and until we as a society hear ALL sides, we will never have unity. We (and I count myself on the side of doing the right thing) need to find a way where EVERYONE feels like they are winning. This means... listening to ALL sides and not dismissing them. Acknowledging that there is a tendency for neuroticism in all "groups" where people "believe" their narratives. We need to stop screaming and telling people they are toxic, bad, a scourge on the rest of society. This does NOT win people over. It is the exact same tactics these young men engage in to get women (and minority groups) to do what they want and it is NOT ok.

People like Tate (predators of vulnerable, often deeply unhappy young men) claim that to get ahead you have to be brutal, take no prisoners, treat women badly, show no mercy or respect, and be the "Top G" (apparently that stands for gangster rolls eyes)

I will paraphrase what someone once told me and it stuck with me because despite how completely deluded it was, this person actually believed this, 100%:

"there is currency in being oppressed. You can shut down conversation when you are oppressed. You say something and you are called an ist of some type. There is huge power in that. Everyone must have something to hang their victimhood on, even if its bullshit. Why can't people like me have a hanger? Society has treated me like shit, and then told me I should be grateful. F* them"

Obviously paraphrasing but that gives the main points of the conversation we had.

Monoprix · 29/12/2022 14:39

The dick doesn’t understand how ridiculous he sounds when he brags about his wealth, possessions, and car collection..
Who the hell is stupid enough to buy that many cars? Who is he trying to impress? Other dicks, I suppose.
I just can’t get past around the number of his stupid cars…it’s when daft little kids start bragging about their toys. Get a life!

Burgoo · 29/12/2022 14:40

That said, despite my wanting to be compassionate to the AVERAGE man like this (not Tate, his ilk can do one), I must admit Greta's comeback was marvellous (though will undoubtedly be used by Tate to tell his followers that she is mocking small penises and that it shows women are only about having sex with attractive men with large penises)

Burgoo · 29/12/2022 14:42

@Monoprix I think he is literally deluded. It comes off almost manic in some ways. I doubt he has that many cars. He once claimed to be a billionaire but they reckon he has around £12million ish.

OneTC · 29/12/2022 14:44

Monoprix · 29/12/2022 14:39

The dick doesn’t understand how ridiculous he sounds when he brags about his wealth, possessions, and car collection..
Who the hell is stupid enough to buy that many cars? Who is he trying to impress? Other dicks, I suppose.
I just can’t get past around the number of his stupid cars…it’s when daft little kids start bragging about their toys. Get a life!

He understands full well. We aren't his target audience. Similarly to a poorly spelt scam email the whole presentation works as a sieve for idiots

FloydPepper · 29/12/2022 14:55

@Burgoo good post and I think a lot rings true. I meant that’s why some men listen to him, not that they are correct.

that’s what I mean about being careful to bring all men, even the ones who are susceptible to his shit, on the journey. Otherwise there’s a space for people like Tate

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/12/2022 17:34

There is always a place for the Andrew Tates of this world: Men who profit from other men's insecurities. Fortunately most boys grow out of this stage. Today a lot of them realised that AT is not a wise Alpha male, he's a pissy, wee bitch.🤣🤣🤣

CrapBucket · 29/12/2022 17:37

FloydPepper · 29/12/2022 14:30

This
he plays to an audience that feel they are being told they can’t be men, can’t be masculine, are losing out. A pp said secure men are supportive of women and see women’s gain is not men’s loss. His audience don’t have the ability (intelligence? Emotional range? Maturity?) to see this.

I worry that there is a risk here. Demonising masculinity as toxic, without taking great care to bring (a certain type of) men on that journey gives a space for people like him to exploit.

I agree. I know a lot of teenage boys/men and they are so easily led by this kind of person.

TinaYouFatLard · 29/12/2022 17:45

Whatever the average Mumsnetter thinks of AT, there are huge numbers of young men and boys who think he’s the Top G. We need to be asking why and taking it seriously rather than chortling about SDE and writing him off as a laughable dick.

Burgoo · 29/12/2022 18:52

@TinaYouFatLard "Whatever the average Mumsnetter thinks of AT, there are huge numbers of young men and boys who think he’s the Top G. We need to be asking why and taking it seriously rather than chortling about SDE and writing him off as a laughable dick."

THIS! We can sit in our ivory towers (yes the average working class person doesn't think like we do on here, we are middle classers as a rule I believe) and call him a "dick" all we like but the fact is that will only push boys into his arms. And don't think your child could get drawn in? I had one mother crying at me after finding out her son was sending vile messages to women, often degrading and belittling. In her mind he was the ideal son; polite, courteous, respectful to women (in real life), an achiever, intelligent and funny. What she didn't see was that he was deeply inadequate and turned to the likes of Tate to feel connection in a world that made him feel like a predator, toxic... ironically turning himself into that very thing

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/12/2022 19:56

There's fewer AT fans today than yesterday. No one's fault but his own.🤦‍♀️ A grown man, AT went up against a teenage woman, nearly half his age and embarrassed himself all over the internet.

Times are hard, things are expensive, I will enjoy my chortling. It's free.😊😂😂

NameChange2023 · 29/12/2022 20:09

@Burgoo very interesting, and it makes sense that some men think like that.

I've got teenage sons and see them trying to make sense of their place in life, but fervently hope they don't go in that direction.

EsmeSusanOgg · 29/12/2022 20:18

News sites in Romania say he and his brother have been arrested, and their mansion raided AGAIN today. Same as the previous raid, suspected of sex trafficking...

www.libertatea.ro/stiri/surse-perchezitii-diicot-tristan-tate-andrew-tate-sechestrare-fete-tristan-tate-bianca-dragusanu-4394856

LexMitior · 29/12/2022 20:24

Andrew Tate is an arsehole. But the reason he gets traction is probably the same reason teenage boys are the most likely to commit crime, poor impulse control and upbringings where there are not a lot of boundaries set by mature well adjusted men.

I wouldn't rate a teenage boy's nature on what he said to his mother. I'd check his phone. Much more accurate.

ILoveeCakes · 29/12/2022 20:26

Out of interest, does Greta know much about dicks? Is she legally allowed to have sex/would her consent be valid?

LexMitior · 29/12/2022 20:29

Most girls get to know about small dick energy below any age of consent.

Thisismadness · 29/12/2022 20:41

There’s a quote that’s something like when you’re used to privilege, equality feels like oppression - that’s men like Tate, can’t get used to society no longer treating them as top dog without question.

Thisismadness · 29/12/2022 20:42

ILoveeCakes · 29/12/2022 20:26

Out of interest, does Greta know much about dicks? Is she legally allowed to have sex/would her consent be valid?

Greta is 19 now I believe.

WaddleAway · 29/12/2022 20:48

ILoveeCakes · 29/12/2022 20:26

Out of interest, does Greta know much about dicks? Is she legally allowed to have sex/would her consent be valid?

Why would she not be allowed to have sex? She’s 19.

TinaYouFatLard · 29/12/2022 20:48

I can assure you that followers of AT do not overlap with followers of GT. He will not have lost a single young fan as a result of this. It will only fuel his message.

Bard6817 · 29/12/2022 20:53

Thisismadness · 29/12/2022 20:41

There’s a quote that’s something like when you’re used to privilege, equality feels like oppression - that’s men like Tate, can’t get used to society no longer treating them as top dog without question.

And for the vast majority of men - they have never lived in that world.

chocolatemademefat · 29/12/2022 20:54

Why are we even discussing this twat? Greta got the best of him and left him with nowhere to go. The more we talk about him the more relevant he becomes. Ignore ignore ignore.