To think how I discipline my dog is no-one else’s business?

[1Childand1Dog87]

I have a 3 year old dog, had him ever since he was a puppy. I am quite strict with him - he isn’t allowed to jump up at people, he isn’t allowed to approach other dogs without the owner’s permission, he is sent to his bed when the family eat so he doesn’t beg for food, he is told no when he touches something he shouldn’t like the children’s toys etc - and occasionally if I have had to tell him more than once about something (he has a habit of getting distracted when guests are over) then he goes to his bed for some time out etc.

Because of this, he is generally a really well behaved dog and I’ve never really had any issues with him apart from if he gets distracted and overwhelmed with loads of people or loads going on, he can struggle to concentrate on what is being said to him - but that is something that is a work in progress. In a normal environment he is very good at listening, etc.

The issues I have had however are with family members making comments every time I do put these boundaries into place - because basically they think he should be able to just do whatever he wants to do. Like an example from earlier today - his behaviour has been all over the place the last few days from being quite overwhelmed with Christmas and busy households - this is normal for him and will settle back down when everything else quietens down. He had something in his mouth that he shouldn’t have done and could have easily caused an issue to himself had he swallowed it - I told him to drop it a couple of times and he didn’t - so I VERY lightly tapped him on the nose and he dropped it straight away and went back to playing with his toys. I very rarely do that unless it’s something he needs to let go of right that second for his own sake and safety and he isn’t listening to verbal commands because of distractions etc rather than trying to drag it out of his mouth. But my family said I should have just left him and he might have dropped it eventually etc.

One family member has a similar dog and she lets him get away with murder and then constantly moans about it - he doesn’t let her sleep and rules the household basically - and yet she criticises me for actually having rules and boundaries with my dog.

Any advice for how I handle this situation?

Dogs are not pack animals and, even if they were, packs do not have bottoms.

A pack is not a description of hierarchy. It's a description of the closeness and stability of the bonds between the Individuals. A pack is a close knit group of animals that very rarely changes.

Dogs left to organise themselves form loose and fluid social groups. The membership of them changes regularly. There is no top or bottom, there is just whoever wants a resource more at any moment in time.

If you see dog behaviour through the lens of them trying to form a linear hierarchical pack you are missing much about what makes dogs, dogs.

OP I think your biggest crime is posting in AIBU about disciplining a dog. It was never going to go well.

Crikey, I’m wondering if half these posters have ever had a dog the way they are talking! Dogs are all different with different personalities. In my own family, my MIL has a sensitive little westie who would probably cower at a raised voice and is impeccably behaved. You then have dogs like mine who are robust little arseholes who will constantly push boundaries so they can do exactly what they want. Mine is a food thief and I can’t even tell you how many times over the last 10 years I’ve had to rugby tackle her to the floor and prize her jaws open to remove whatever dodgy thing she was trying to eat. There is no amount of bribery that will make her drop a stolen “prize”. Even my mum’s dog once caught a squirrel, killed it and refused to drop it and carried it all the way home. My mum had to throw the lead over a tree branch in the garden to hoist her on to her back legs and essentially strangle her to force her to drop it. I’m pretty sure your spaniel is not scarred at all from a tap on the nose and in general he sounds beautifully well behaved for a three year old dog.

Pack theory was debunked some years ago now. There are some excellent dog behaviour books available, written by actual experts. It would be so good to see more dog owners read them.

I own two Labradors, both with the common traits of over exuberance and eating anything.

I am also a dog walker and take dogs of all shapes, sizes and personalities out every day either alone or in small groups of 4.

I have never ever tapped any dog on the nose, or used any kind of force to train them or get my own way.

I also don't raise my voice other than to be heard if things are loud. I do have different tones of voice- but shouty isn't one of them.

My dogs are impeccably behaved. My own dogs do all that the OP describes and more. My work dogs are all very well behaved. Some newer ones are still a work in progress but we are getting there.

There is just no need to train a dog using any kind of fear, force, or physical 'tap', slap or poke. I'm not saying those methods don't work because they do. But they are unnecessary, and create a different relationship with the dog to one created without these methods.

My dogs trust me. They do as I ask because they have an inbuilt desire to please, because they trust me and because they have come to understand what is expected of them- this last one is key as it's not always as easy as people expect for a dog to know what is desirable vs undesirable behaviour.

They are happy, healthy dogs and that is a joy to see. If anything upsets them or they are unsure about anything (a loud noise in the distance, or an unfamiliar sight) they come to me out of choice because that's where they feel safe.

fwiw @freckles20 , that's a beautiful description of the way training methods influence behavour and the relationship between handler and dog.

If you wouldn't hit your child on the nose don't do it to your dog 😡

And if you would, do?

You and your mother are absolute disgraces, although I am not surprised you seem to support the OP with her disgusting treatment of her dog (and I don’t only mean the hitting in the face or “tapping on the nose” as she likes to put it).

You need to train your dogs not rugby tackle, wrestle with or half strangle them. If I say “Drop” in a firm manner my dog will drop anything, because I have trained him to do so and we still practice it from time to time.

I see. So since children are all different, with different personalities, it would be fine to leather one or grab them by the throat if you deemed it appropriate? Or is that only reserved for pets?

If you want to see a dog that constantly pushes boundaries, then you haven't met one until you have a Border Collie in the house. They not only push the boundaries, but work out where the next one will be and push that one too! The way that you manage this is called "training" and does not involve rugby tackles, physical punishment, or hanging a dog from a tree by its throat.

You do not deserve to own dogs, and it's a shame that your mother wasn't seen and reported for animal cruelty. That is truly disgusting behaviour, and judging by the way you are talking, you should never be allowed near a dog.

How do adult dogs teach puppies?

Adult dogs don't teach puppies drop commands RedHelenB but in areas of etiquette rather than commands puppies learn by mimicking adult dogs (where to pee, things to eat).

In rough play, puppies learn to interpret body language and vocalisations but funnily enough that doesn't involve hitting each other on the nose. Healthy puppy play has bowing, rolling and switching roles. Older dogs normally will bring themselves to the puppies level, maybe lying down for example and most commonly either disengaging or showing a warning sign (teeth, a growl) if they need to correct.

They don't smack each other in the nose and where responsible owners are integrating new or young dogs it shouldn't become aggressive.

Adult dogs... vary in their skill at teaching young dogs because their interests are all about themselves, not the other dog.

Some are excellent and will respond appropriately by walking away or ignoring unwanted/unappreciated behaviour (which doesn't teach the puppy what they SHOULD do, just teaches them 'this won't work', insufficient on its own but helpful if a person is involved who can step in and redirect)..

These will often do a polite lip curl/freeze/stare/grr and if really pushed, a bit of a roar if the walking away/ignoring doesn't work. It's smart not to let it get to that point though.

Some are utterly rubbish and either play wildly and allow puppies to bite and rag on them to the point of blood shed and pain, and some are the other way, totally intolerant and aggressive. Neither is useful.

The key point to take away though is that other dogs don't care what a puppy does, as long as it's not bothering THEM.

So they don't care if the puppy doesn't recall, is scared of them, doesn't trust them, won't walk on a lead, doesn't take food nicely etc etc. All things one hopes humans do care about.

Interesting to note (well it is if you're a dog behaviour consultant or dog owner)..

Normal, healthy, happy bitches do not discipline puppies by scruffing, shaking, biting muzzles, in fact any of the things people routinely claim they do and thus humans should mimic.

Scruffing is done in tiny puppies to move them to safety - a bitch doing this in a home (vs a wild canid doing it) is very stressed and anxious!

Scruffing and shaking a puppy is a sign the bitch is extremely distressed and scared of her own puppies, she should not have been bred and she should be removed from the litter for their safety and her welfare!

Muzzle mouthing/biting isn't a thing in happy, normal bitches. Puppies trying to get Mom to open her mouth and regurge food IS, and as the puppies get older you may see her trying to walk away from that.

Puppies playing 'bitey face' with one another or other older dogs who are not Mom are simply playing, though its a rather wormy creepy sometimes pushy 'I can do this I am a baby you aren't allowed to complain' behaviour in some contexts (ie, pup is horribly rude and bounces all over then the adult dog stiffens up and lip curls and the puppy does this in response).

Then just say "oh we never have that problem" 😊

If she asks why then tell her cos you actually discipline your dog.

@Wdib78 you are completely missing the point that those of us who abhor your types of discipline do not need convincing that it can work.

We accept that it can work. It can teach a dog not to do something because the consequence of doing 'the thing' is pain, or discomfort or anger from its owner.

But that doesn't make it right, or optimal in terms of training methods.

There are other, more effective, less unkind methods. These train without fear or discomfort.

They can take longer, require repetition and the results are often gradual. However, the results are also longer lasting, achieved without fear, generally increase a dogs confidence, and do not damage the bond between dog and owner.

The proof in the pudding is that the majority of trainers who used to use your type of methods have changed their practises and evolved into force free kind methods. Many of them were absolutely convinced that the old school methods were best, but as they began to see and understand the different results that each method had, the tide gradually turned and then gathered pace and they changed their mind and their methods.

If these people can and have changed surely it is something worth seriously considering? We now see three types of people who haven't changed their methods:

1. Those whose main requirement is swift results. Often seen in 'trainers' who charge a lot of money and promise results in one or two sessions. Their results tend to be short lasting, damaging, and way less effective than others.

1. People who unable or unwilling to think critically about both methods for whatever reason. Often these people are out of touch with the wider world of dog training and don't have an interest in change or progression.

1. People who unfortunately get some sort of feel good experience out of shaping a dog using fear or force. These are dangerous, nasty people who get a kick out of this.

The problem sometimes seems to be that most people who still use these methods are so busy convincing the rest of us that they don't fall into category 3 (which of course most of them don't) that they can't process the fact that things have changed, better methods exist and it is such a shame that they won't consider them.

Change to force free methods has happened in every section of dog training including the army, police, guide dogs, search dogs and assistance dogs. Surely this tells you something- most of these people and organisations used to train in the old way but have changed and won't go back......

Interestingly, the main dog training area where there has hasn't been full acceptance of force free methods is the gun dog training community. However, even here it is gathering pace and the tide is gradually turning.

I wonder if the analogy of teaching a child not to steal food by hurting them or frightening them as opposed to a more humane method means anything to people like you?

Both methods would have results, and the former might teach the child the lesson more quickly- probably on its first application. Yet we don't teach children or shape their behaviour in that way. Ask yourself why?

What is the difference between children taught via fear and pain, and those taught in a kind way?

The difference isn't seen in terms of behaviour- both children most likely be well behaved (although the one taught using fear or pain probably became well behaved more quickly than the one taught in a different way).

Ontop of all of this we should bear in mind that usually the most undesirable behaviour in dogs is aggression. In the vast vast majority of cases aggression is rooted in fear. Fearful dogs are at risk of becoming aggressive. This can have catastrophic results.

As such it follows that training methods which cause fear or pain are much more likely to result in a fearful dog which will always have a greater risk of becoming aggressive.

Excellent post by @freckles20 👏

YOU'RE missing the fact I'm not OP, SHE tapped the dog LIGHTLY on the nose, the rest of the discipline is sending it to its bed, are you off you're fucking rocker lecturing me about dogs, I hate them, would never have one, had a,cat for 19 years, never again, too much heartache when he died, you need to quote the OP, not me.

Just here to laugh at people talking so knowledgeable about things they clearly have no real experience of.

Dogs don’t understand no 😂😂😂😂😂

Well sure if you don’t teach them.

Everyone always comments on what an astoundingly well behaved dog I have.
They ask how I do it but when I tell them that she’s only allowed in my bed/the couch if invited, is never allowed to jump up at people and that I don’t remove the source of every temptation but have helped her learn self restraint they don’t really want to hear that they would have put in consistent and regular effort in to changing their own behaviour so now I say she’s naturally inclined and I’m very lucky.

Truth is I had a clear idea of what I needed and expected and enough experience with dogs to know how to communicate that.
I have used the same words consistently all her life so now I can tell her wether she is staying (being left for a while) waiting (being left for a very short time) or coming and she will respond appropriately

the idea that she doesn’t understand no in different contexts is laughable. I’m sure many dogs don’t especially some of the dimmer breeds but when we come across your lead dog who is not allowed to come and say hi all I have to say is a firm no and she will come sit by me and wait while the others pass. She knows plenty of words because they have been used clearly and consistently.

Not as many as that mad collie they taught over 200 toy names

@Wdib78 my most recent post was in response to your comment "If she asks why then tell her cos you actually discipline your dog."- your suggested reason that a poster should use to explain her well behaved dog.

Apologises if I misunderstood. To me your comment sounded like you advocated the type of discipline that the OP and others on this thread are into.

I'm an owner of, and enjoy the company of, both cats and dogs. From your tone I think it is a blessing to the dog species that you dislike them and won't be owning one during your lifetime.

I would never hit a dog! I'm referring to sending it to bed if it has done something wrong! I'm assuming you let your dog run amok then

But I think in your exmaples @SomePosters you are using the word NO is very specific circumstances and, by the sound of it, your dog has slowly wittled out all the possible wrong options for that word and come to understand the intention you have behind it.

When people talking about dogs not understand the word NO it is because it comes loaded with a couple of potential pitfalls. Very few people bother to think about the specific circumstances they might use it is or the specific behaviours they want from the dog in those circumstances. They use it off the cuff as a 'don't do whatever you are doing' word and that tells the dog nothing.

The dog probably hears that word in such a wide variety of circumstances that they struggle to apply it to anything other than, perhaps, the sense that it precedes something bad (as in, humans can feel the dog ignores the word NO and so requires some greater punishment to stop them).

They also don't follow it with anything additonal information to tell the dog what they want instead. In reality, mostly people mean 'I don't mind what you do as long as you don't do that' but that's a hard meaning to convey to a dog.

It is also a very frustrating way to learn. There is a great (dog) training exercise in which something attempts to get you to do a motion by only using the word NO, leaving you to have to guess and get it wrong plenty of times before you get it right. It's is a really stressful way to learn and it takes a bit of willpower not to shout "what the hell do you want!!" after a few minutes of it.

You sound like you may have taught youe dog that word in a different way but the above is how the majority of dog woners attempt to use it and it is rarely helpful in that way.

I disagree if he had something dangerous for himself in his mouth eg paracetamol
Voice first, second, third and then I would put my hand down towards the mouth and hold the collar gently and repeat but yes if they had something that could hurt them (and no I don’t leave paracetamol hanging around)
I don’t tap my dogs on the nose but they do it to each other 😂and compared to what I do eg tap on the bum to remind them to sit down and I mean a gentle tap is nothing compared to how they deal with each other.
Oldest keeps the others in line with full on pin them down when they were puppies. So the puppy would jump up at them and he would use his paws and physically push him down (if he didn’t want to play) now they are much older the eldest will usually give a warning growl if the youngest is too playful and he’s had enough but once of twice he has pinned him down and sat on him. The three of them are currently curled up with their paws around each other

This is true I say drop for anything in their mouth
No means they tend to look at me for a further instructions eg lie down, bring it, sit, wait, come, heel, leave, silent, bark, gentle etc

they have a very large vocabulary actually

I disagree if he had something dangerous for himself in his mouth eg paracetamol
Voice first, second, third and then I would put my hand down towards the mouth and hold the collar gently and repeat but yes if they had something that could hurt them (and no I don’t leave paracetamol hanging around)

Yup, I get that. In an emergency you've got to do what you've got to do. But it is not training - it is a sign that your training has failed or was incomplete.

I had to stomp on the dog's lead the other day as they'd slipped the owner's hand and were running to the road. So that dog was stopped by a sudden jolt on the neck. The jolt was, by far, better that being hit by a car.

But it is also a sign that dog needs better training in less perilous circumstances.

My own dog would not have required that. He would have
a) never run off it I dropped the lead, not least because a dropped lead is something we previously trained for

b)would have recalled if he had run because recall in a variety of circumstances is someting we have trained for

c) would have also performed an emergency DOWN if asked, because being able to stop him right in his tracks without him trying to get back to me is something we have trained for

The pin was an emergency and required emergency intervention. Now the OP knows she needs to work on the drop behaviour in a variety of contexts with a variety of objects. That will mean that the tap is not required next time, all that is will be a gentle 'drop' and the emergency is averted. TBF to the OP, despite initially describing it as discipline she's since gone on to say it was not planned training, it was an act of panic.

@Wdib78 my dogs are all impeccably behaved. I've already outlined why I think that is and I wouldn't call it discipline.

However, maybe we have different interpretations of the word "discipline".

I'd interpret it along these lines: .
"the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behaviour, using punishment to correct disobedience."

Maybe yours is a gentler interpretation.

No matter, I see you won't ever be owning a dog so let's leave this now.