To feel aggrieved that I've lost a friendship over anti vax

[VisaGeezer]

I've recently had a fall out with a friend of about 11 years due to not agreeing with/challenging her anti vax opinions

We don't see each other often these days and I wasn't aware of these opinions before. They include;

Covid vaccine is killing young people, who are dropping dead at rates never seen before.

It's causing miscarriages.

It's causing lots of health problems.

Pziser lied and said it prevented transmission. (I checked this and they actually didn't).

The World Economic Forum (?) is taking over.

MMR vaccine causes Autism.

The Anish community doesn't take MMR vaccine and had no autism.

Various stuff about Trans issues (kids being transed) which actually agreed with.

Pharmaceutical companies are all evil and have political, economic etc agendas.

COVID was created in a lab, initially in the US, moved to China due to safety issues etc.

Any data released by anyone refuting the claims about COVID has been bought, is false etc

Doctors who said unvaccinated ppl were more likely to end up in ICU were bought/under the thumb and lying.

The Member of palace staff (subsequently "retired") who questioned the black lady during the event there about her origins and moved/touche her hair was - due to age etc - not being racist or offensive ..... I said grabbing and moving her hair combined with the questioning about her origin, nationality etc was extremely intrusive. She said it wasn't, grabbing someone's crotch would be extremely intrusive, I said that would be sexual assault, not "extremely intrusive".

During this conversation my frustration, exasperation and lack of agreement became more and more obvious ....she told me I needed to read about things, do my research before dismissing these things etc etc . It escalated to me walking off.

I have since apologised for walking off, with no response. I feel the friendship is over.

An I right to feel aggrieved, should I have been more tactful? Would the friendship have blown up over stuff like this anyway?

@maddy68 indeed it is, and aspirin is dangerous for children, and it is well known that cancer drugs have long term serious side effects. Those are the known things - there's also the fact that no medicine or medical procedure is 100% safe. But people don't want to know that.

So does that mean that we should no longer offer those treatments? Do the potential side effects of cancer treatments mean that they are universally harmful?

Rejecting prophylaxis for diseases is what being an anti-vaxxer means, not just acknowledging that there are known risks - scientists and clinicians do that all the time. This is not about personal choice it is about believing in bullshit conspiracy theories.

Everything we do carries some risk, we make choices every day that put is at risk. This is life.

Sadly we live in a post-truth world. People have been told by hucksters and populists that their opinion is as good as anyone else's and they will just choose to listen to who they agree with. This is big business with lots of people peddling conspiracy theories absolutely raking it in.

As someone with a PhD in a STEM area and who works in that area I have found that evidence comes a very distant second to emotion for most people. You can present all the data you want to a lot of people, but if it goes against their view they will either ignore it or just find another line of attack. It is a shame really as a lot of people have spent a lot of time trying to do outreach work and inform the public, but there is money to be made from misinformation so you can't really fight market forces.

I don't envy you, @Eleganz It must be like banging your head against a brick wall at times. :-(

@Eleganz I worked in health research in a non-clinical role for years and I so recognise where you are coming from. I also think that science teaching in schools is very poor - there's very little in the GCSE for a start. DD2 did a Psychology A level and that contained a lot of stuff on research methodology and statistics, but IMO that should be part of the science GCSE - maybe then fewer people would believe the misinformation.

The people who peddle and spout random nonsense they've read on social media or watched on YouTube aren't conspiracy theorists. They are, somewhat ironically, the very thing they claim not to be; deluded, easily manipulated sheep with barely an orginal thought rattling around that empty cavern they call a head.

I've yet to meet one who understands what "research" is, let alone one who even knows how to access/source restricted information. Calling those morons conspiracy theorists is an insult to real conspiracy theorists, who at the very least put some effort into their chosen skit and will give a good account of defending whatever it is they belive.

If you're ever wondering how to tell the difference between the two; a moronic sheep will tell you to "do your research" or "wake up" when challenged, whereas a real conspiracy theorist will present you with a shed load books, articles, websites, papers, etc to read.

Thanks for thi @ILoveeCakes . I've taken jab after jab, have stuck it in my babies, and will be doing so again soon. It's reassuring to know I have your support.

As regards the World Economic Forum: it really exists, and really does have meetings, but it has recently become the subject of conspiracy theories, and mixed with anti-vaccination stuff:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/55017002

That's like saying that because some people have been murderers, it's justified to accuse all your neighbours indiscriminately of being murderers.

Mind you, if anyone tries to get between me and my BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to vaccinations and modern medicine, I might start feeling tempted to become a murderer!

The WEF might have sparked off less conspiracy theories if they'd done less of the "You'll own nothing and be happy" stuff.

I've had three jabs and was a strong supporter of the vaccine - in fact I rushed to get it. It's probably on balance beneficial. But let's not pretend it's perfect, in fact the number of adverse events should be discussed far more. It really has impacted negatively on some people's lives. Info can be found on the official government site and shutting down the anti-vaccers is not scientific debate - its the opposite of that.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

I live with a couple of scientists, including one whose field of expertise is 'control of infectious diseases' – she has a first-class Masters in the subject and worked in a bio-secure lab at one of the world's top research institutions.

I therefore wouldn't be able to entertain a friendship with someone who thinks Covid is a conspiracy (or a hoax) which scientists are a part of and that they are all lying or have been paid off. I actually consider that quite offensive.

I agree with PP that you can't have a sensible discussion with people who think their feelings trump large-scale scientific research. It would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic how people think that because they've read some social media material they therefore know more than someone who has spent years studying epidemiology and/or virology.

You do you. Take all the needles if you please. But respect others' bodily autonomy.

*The pandemic highlighted the lack of scientific background and critical thinking skills in the population. Some people feel they have a right to an opinion on this but In many areas of life we don’t have enough specialist knowledge to have a valid opinion.

I think you're right.*

this is an issue. I agree that not everyone’s opinion is equal. Professionals and experts will get more of a hearing. But you and I, and everyone else all have to make a judgement call.

the facts of the matter are: very few of us are actually capable of doing the appropriate maths to analyse stats. We can all bang in the old mean, median, mode, etc, but how many of us can still do the differential Calc to start dealing with standard deviations and the like? Now I’m sure some here can, but even then, stats analysis is still a complex subject.

More so, is immunology. How many of us can describe with actual accuracy anything beyond sound bites about how a spike protein vaccine works and it’s difference to an attenuated vaccine?

Again- I’m sure some here can, and for those who can, they possess the skills to judge well on the merits of their own knowledge. The rest of us must choose who to believe. We are unable to judge by our own wits if we’re being fooled because these subjects are simply beyond us (not in terms of intelligence, but in terms of specific technical skills and experience).

The fact that you have chosen who you believe, and that you find them credible, doesn’t mean that others who haven’t found them credible don’t have reasons for their suspicions. I don’t think anti-vaxxers are right- I’ve had 3 shots myself- but just because many important people say something is the case does not mean it is, and your choice to believe them does not invalidate the suspicions of others.

The fact is human reason relies very heavily upon who you put your faith in.

just because many important people say something is the case does not mean it is, and your choice to believe them does not invalidate the suspicions of others

I wouldn't use the word 'important' but if you substitute the word 'experts', or 'practising epidemiologists' then yes, it pretty much does mean exactly that, in fact. If you do not have any scientific training or qualifications but still claim your opinion on science is as valid as those who do, then you are mistaken.

I've loved conspiracy theories forever. It's just so comforting to think someone is in charge/ knows wtf is happening. Even if it's some bald supervillain in a secret moon base.

But the masters of the universe are as clueless as you or me. Of course there are real conspiracies. 99% of which fail miserably. The other 1% meh?

I've had 5 jabs now and have yet to keel over . Although perhaps I am dead , just a holographic simulacrum of the real Abhannmor . A mindless automaton , whose hellish semi- existence is 🎮 controlled by George Soros.

YANBU, I can’t be friends with idiots, which is what your friend has outed themselves as

Fair enough, that would have annoyed most people enough to walk off.

Yep, including transphobic conspiracy bs

I had a brain clot 4 days after having my 4th vaccine.

I've since had a 5th vaccination.

It was just crap timing. It would have happened, vaccine or not, I am sure.

@Abhannmor well in my ex friends conspiracy scenario apparently I'm to blame for lockdown so there you go. I didn't know I had so much power

Lordy - I've had all sorts of discussions with conspiracy theorists and heard all sorts of wacky opinions (and have sat through a load of shit videos which are basically fact poor opinion pieces).

What makes it harder is that I've been working with and studying infectious diseases for many many years, and have been involved in testing for SARS-CoV-2, but they still feel that they know better from their two hour video involving someone with a PhD in engineering who knows zip about viruses or vaccination. If I disagree or try to point out flaws in their arguments, I've been told I'm part of the conspiracy 😤

I just steer any conversations away from it now, as I just can't be bothered to give their shockingly ill informed opinions the headspace and would rather not lose respect for people who I quite like in other ways.

Sore arm at the injection site, flu like symptoms and a bit of fatigue. Like nearly all vaccine treatments. So not mutating us or killing us then? I’d also be interested to know who this other previous poster is whose relative has had money out of Pfizer for ongoing health issues. What a crock of (bat) shit.

Jeeez, how on earth are you sure? A lady I know had a stroke right after her booster and was already on anticlotting medication after having a stroke after her first. She says it's coincidental, because her GP said it was coincidental. How on earth does anyone know it's coincidental? She'd never had a blood clot in her life before and has now had two, "coincidentally" a week or so after her first jab and a week or so after her second.
Have you reported the clot? Nobody can spot patterns in data if nobody is reporting these things.

This is very true.

A very good friend of mine fell into the conspiracy theory hole. Started with covid vaccines, also Germany ruling the world, people dropping dead, death figures manipulated, Pfizer not testing, and can list off ‘scientists’ that she follows on YouTube. It’s exhausting and after a long two years, it’s boring. I will listen to her for half an hour, repeatedly tell her I disagree and then say I’ve listened to enough.

She has got progressively worse over the last year and her stance on everything is extreme to the point she now attends protest demonstrations.

There is no point trying to be rational or argue with her. I literally time it and then say we have to change the subject.

Ultimately her mental health is shattered due to the pandemic. I don’t want to lose her friendship and compromised with a time limit to try to maintain the friendship.

I know someone who's an anti vaxer.

One of the reasons was because MMR vaccine could cause ASD.

A few years down the line and two of her (unvaccinated) children have been diagnosed with ASD.