To feel aggrieved that I've lost a friendship over anti vax

[VisaGeezer]

I've recently had a fall out with a friend of about 11 years due to not agreeing with/challenging her anti vax opinions

We don't see each other often these days and I wasn't aware of these opinions before. They include;

Covid vaccine is killing young people, who are dropping dead at rates never seen before.

It's causing miscarriages.

It's causing lots of health problems.

Pziser lied and said it prevented transmission. (I checked this and they actually didn't).

The World Economic Forum (?) is taking over.

MMR vaccine causes Autism.

The Anish community doesn't take MMR vaccine and had no autism.

Various stuff about Trans issues (kids being transed) which actually agreed with.

Pharmaceutical companies are all evil and have political, economic etc agendas.

COVID was created in a lab, initially in the US, moved to China due to safety issues etc.

Any data released by anyone refuting the claims about COVID has been bought, is false etc

Doctors who said unvaccinated ppl were more likely to end up in ICU were bought/under the thumb and lying.

The Member of palace staff (subsequently "retired") who questioned the black lady during the event there about her origins and moved/touche her hair was - due to age etc - not being racist or offensive ..... I said grabbing and moving her hair combined with the questioning about her origin, nationality etc was extremely intrusive. She said it wasn't, grabbing someone's crotch would be extremely intrusive, I said that would be sexual assault, not "extremely intrusive".

During this conversation my frustration, exasperation and lack of agreement became more and more obvious ....she told me I needed to read about things, do my research before dismissing these things etc etc . It escalated to me walking off.

I have since apologised for walking off, with no response. I feel the friendship is over.

An I right to feel aggrieved, should I have been more tactful? Would the friendship have blown up over stuff like this anyway?

I was extremely pro covid vaccines. I am triple vaxxed and had my son vaccinated. But there does very much seem to be a higher rate of side effects, including mortality, than that which was originally estimated. And the rate of excess mortality is very high in Europe at the moment, with a degree of correlation between excess mortality in a region and high rates of vaccination.

My SIL who is a biomedical engineer said she read the initial reports from Pfizer and Moderna in early 2021 and chose not to be vaccinated as the conclusions they reported were not possible to conclude from the information they had at the time. On the other hand my 92 year old grandmother was vaccinated 4 times and an echocardiogram she had before surgery earlier not too long after the 4th one, showed her as having the heart of someone 30 years younger. And she had no clotting issues despite the surgery and her age dramatically increasing her risk. So it's not as if the vaccine will definitely damage people. But the rate of complications is higher than we were lead to believe and the initial risk rates we were told about were not necessarily based on the evidence available at the time.

I swerve certain topics with a friend who can be obnoxious at times....i never discuss: covid, vaccine,china or ukraine as she has extreme views which are very right wing despite saying she hates the daily express and daily mail and the lies they print etc....even worse when she has been drinking.....rarely see her....no major loss !

(Trump supporter, anti vaxxer, anti semitic) but I can still have a coffee with her, a chat about the kids, about their house move etc. It's what adults do

it’s not. Most people stand up for their morals. Would you have sat and had a coffee with a Nazi. Sounds like it

When I walked off she had misunderstood my meaning about something (my phrasing) and was he tiring me about contradicting myself while rocking forward on her foot and doing the sort of arm/hand gesture that you see aggressive islamic state preachers do. Pointing at you and jabbing down, if you get me.

This was after 30/40 mind of the opinions cited in the op and the answer to everything I said being that I should educate myself, do my research...."you're all into reading on Mumsnet, youre all intl reading up on health issues ..... Why don't you apply that to this" etc etc. And also that any data refuting the anti vax claims was fake, manufactured and produced by corrupt people.

I think many ppl would have become utterly exasperated and started to lose their temper in that situation. I had rushed back from a kids event to fit a walk in with her cause I hadn't seen her in a long time.
tbh I was afraid I was going to tell her to fuck off, that's why I walked off.

(I will admit I said I felt like she'd gone down the rabbit hole on the internet, which obviously inflamed her).

It sounds like you have very different approaches to life and if you can’t find other things to discuss, it’s probably best that you move on to friends who share your views

*hectoring me

This

I could maybe have coffee with a Trump supporter although I would struggle, I would probably have coffee with an antivaxxer so long as we stayed off topic

But anti semitic - no

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

It's not what adults do ..... And what an incredibly patronising thing to say; implying other people are immature and dysfunctional.

I sit and have coffee with friends who are in favour of giving children puberty blockers, teenagers cross sex hormones and have participated in funding an elective mastectomy for a 20 year old, who we have known since she was born. They are participating in the damaging of the bodies of young people. I disagree with them so very much. But I understand that people not only have different views but that people aren't usually fully aware of all the facts that we base our views. So I am very reluctant to cast people off because I disagree with them. Even on very serious issues.

(Trump supporter, anti vaxxer, anti semitic) but I can still have a coffee with her, a chat about the kids, about their house move etc. It's what adults do

I've just really taken this in ..... So you know someone hates people - people who were subject to one of the most horrific genocides in history - not that long ago in the scheme of things for who they are, for being born into the Jewish faith/community ..... And you go and socialise with them, have a coffee and be pal-y. That says a lot about you as a person.

I would have doubted myself but I've seen a few videos on YouTube (a YouTuber I used to watch who I thought was ok on relationship coaching) pop up in my vis you might like with him and others talking about the WEF and "the great reset".

He's also become an anti vaxers who's "not putting that poison in my body".

There's Def some conspiracy theory about the WEF.

*definitely

I can understand your annoyance @VisaGeezer , if you don't agree on a subject with a friend then you try to respect each others views. The growing rise of Conspiracists and No Debate activists has turned this on it's head, they just can not cope with the idea that you don't agree with them, it's actually offensive to them that you say No, that's not right.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion but no one's entitled to unpleasant if you don't agree

I lost a very good friend due to similar issues OP. Prior to covid, she never held any 'extreme' views but covid seemed to send her bat shit crazy. She wasn't working and spent a lot of time 'researching' conspiracy theories - most of which she discovered on Facebook. She shared awful posts on social media against the NHS, nurses, government etc and would constantly comment on public posts that didn't share her views.
We spoke on the phone and she tried to bring up her theories, and I suggested that we didn't discuss them as our views were polar opposite and neither would agree with the other - she refused to let it drop and by the end of the conversation I was criticised for vaccinating my children, believing that covid existed, wearing a mask in public and for generally being a 'sheep'. We haven't spoken since and that was over 2 years ago. I do feel sad that our friendship is over but her views seemed to have taken over her personality and she couldn't stand that my views were different.

Google ‘crunchy to white supremacy’, much of the thinking you talk about follows this line of theory.

You cannot reason with this type of people, you have to let them come out of it on their own. My theory on these folks is usually that they have a lot of hidden anxiety, and they are usually of the thinking that life has done them hard, and its someone else’s fault, always with a chip on their shoulder. Put together with something once in a life time like a global pandemic and you’ve got the perfect recipe for a full blown QA anon type.

I have a tendency to just smile and nod if someone is an idiot and can't see reality. There is no point trying to battle someone who is stupid, they will never see another perspective.

If I have to engage in a debate about something I ask them to provide 1. evidence based research that is peer reviewed and/or randomly controlled 2. non-news related sources (that means no Mail, Guardian, Facebook, Twitter etc related sources unless they have a scientific basis 3. what gives them the impression/belief this is the case? Belief isn't valid without evidence 4. why would an organisation/government/company do something? For example, for what reason would Bill Gates want to microchip us all via the vaccine? (and are you/we really all that important? I can imagine him sitting at some secret lair thinking "aahh Burgoo, at the fridge again! Mwahh hahahaha!" Dr Evil little finger motion)

My starting point is:

1. Is there something I am missing? There are ALWAYS other perspectives, and even if I disagree with them I need to know HOW the person got to where they are intellectually.
2. I assume the person genuinely believes what they are saying and make the assumption I could be wrong.
3. Treat people with compassion. I voted Brexit, I was conned. I can admit it and I can now see the error. Some people can't, because to them being wrong means their whole sense of self is up for doubt.

If you go in there with those three points you can't really go wrong. Just screaming at each other (or quietly but forcefully telling people they are wrong) will NEVER give us any more info/insight or convince the other person they are missing information.

I think people should just be left to believe what they want. It was perhaps a topic that should have been avoided between you both. She has her views, you have yours. Both could be argued to have some merit to them.

Also another thing is most wacky thinking comes from fear. People need to feel in control. Even if that means projecting a belief that isn't valid. The idea is, if I think that the world's governments are engaging in a conspiracy to kill off half the population and gain further control over our lives, I don't have to accept that these freak incidents happen and will again.

She'll never see your point of view, @VisaGeezer
Honestly, sometimes I think it's these folk who've had a chip inserted or something.. they are practically rabid with their 'theories.'

She shared awful posts on social media against the NHS, nurses, government

Government is one thing; anyone attacking nurses and the NHS in those circumstances.... That's verging on evil.

A woman I know ended up on the COVID ward in the local hospital, she said if anyone could see the inside of a covid ward, they'd never have dreamt of not taking the vaccine. She said the nurses (many of whom are immigrants from deprived counties).showed such an incredible level of kindness towards patients while working in clearly uncomfortable, cumbersome equipment for hours

She raised and kept raising it

She also raised the sacking of the palace staff member, and the BLM fraud, (And Megan Markle issues, which I didn't include here), and transing of kids, and the WEF etc

It's the first time I became aware she was anti vax etc.

*My starting point is:

Is there something I am missing? There are ALWAYS other perspectives, and even if I disagree with them I need to know HOW the person got to where they are intellectually.
I assume the person genuinely believes what they are saying and make the assumption I could be wrong.
Treat people with compassion. I voted Brexit, I was conned. I can admit it and I can now see the error. Some people can't, because to them being wrong means their whole sense of self is up for doubt.

If you go in there with those three points you can't really go wrong*

Devil's Advocate; would you apply this if it was someone arguing for "minor attracted persons" to be recognised as an orientation and included with LGBT?

To be fair I think a couple of those beliefs have more than a grain of truth to them.

You’ve got your answers op, majority of us agree with you so why do you need to keep proving to us how bat shit your friend is by regurgitating the stuff she’s said?

Yanbu.

Your friends sounds as if she’s been radicalised. It’s so hard to listen to this and just nod along. If you try to reason with them (I tried) they get angry and refer you to YouTube videos or alt news channels. In the end I blocked them.

The pandemic highlighted the lack of scientific background and critical thinking skills in the population. Some people feel they have a right to an opinion on this but In many areas of life we don’t have enough specialist knowledge to have a valid opinion. The Covid science is constantly evolving and there’s so much debate surrounding the origins, the outcomes etc. This is fertile ground for conspiracy, and one conspiracy often leads to another and another.

The internet’s been great for many aspects of life but it’s been awful at spreading mis/disinformation. And a lot of people have been dragged into various rabbit holes. Maybe your friend will pop out the other side of the rabbit hole and realise she’s been taken in but don’t hold your breath.