Re Ambulance/ nurse strikes

[TheWindIsChanging]

The last thread reached 1000 messages so assume that means it automatically closes any thread so thought I would continue the debate. My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes.
It's no great shock the usual suspects are screaming about the tories again waving tiny fists around red faced incandescent with rage. The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral which happened in the 70s further decreasing quality of life for all of us, not just the NHS workers.
Inflation is the main issue that causes issues with wages, and the reason for this is principally covid lockdowns which ( cue the drumroll) were brought in to protect the useless NHS... the irony that this same "service" is now complaining about economic problems which it helped to instigate is hilarious. I can't remember a single year in the last 20 where it wasn't nearly "bursting at the seems" and given the amount of tax payers money disappearing into it like the metaphorical black hole perhaps time it was scrapped. I don't see these same issues in other countries..a healthcare worker is not a typical profession as the basic goal is to save lives not abandoning ship. As others have said, all very well to type YABU, but I suspect the wind would change quickly if it was a relative who died as a consequence of these disgusting strikes which will cost lives make no mistake about it. That said, the same people raging about the state of the economy were labelling anyone not supporting lockdowns as a " granny killer" which anyone with an IQ over 70 could see would lead to this mess.

Except that multiple studies show far better patient outcomes and reduced mortality, when nurses on wards are university educated.

But they don’t show why. The alternative could be that nurses still get degrees but get their fees paid and are paid In training in exchange for an obligatory period of work in the NHS. Personally I find it scandalous that undergraduate nurses are exploited as unpaid labour.

It is very very common for nurses to decide very early in their career that they want to leave, that nursing if not the profession they thought it was. The drop out rather in the first couple of years after qualifying is very high.

Do we really think that forcing miserable junior nurses to stay in a job they feel unable to cope with is the solution? How much help would they realistically be? They will end up off sick due to stress I imagine.

The only feasible solution is to address some of the reasons that nurses want to leave, and that primarily comes down to improving staffing levels and retaining experienced staff so that new nurses can be supported to find their feet and feel adequately recompensed for the work they do.

7 in 10 is 70% not 90%. The figure may be higher now but you don't know that it is 90%. If you have the evidence, please link.
I reach the conclusion that the vaccines work because if 99% of people have antibodies and only 70% (or even 90%) of people have been infected then how did the 29% (or 9%) get antibodies if it wasn't via vaccination? And why are highly vaccinated age groups (e.g. those over 80 years) much more likely to have antibodies to covid than age groups that are less likely to be vaccinated? (e.g. 8 to 11 year olds).

I'm not sure how you think that article shows that "high level of anti bodies isn't evidence the vaccine works".

You don't get health care for free

Indeed. The NHS costs a fortune for very poor wuality service.

national insurance was invented as the way in which you pay for it

Most people pay nowhere near enough NI to cover their healthcare costs. Some people pay extortionate amounts and still receive appalling quality healthcare from the NHS, if they manage to get treated at all.

Good grief at this rate you will let the government force you to get private healthcare and let them keep the money you pay in taxes for healthcare!

Many are in this position already due to how appalling NHS services are, if they can be accessed at all. We'd be far better off with a system similar to most continental European countries: broadly similar level of expenditure in terms of proportion of GDP but far superior patient access, treatments and health outcomes.

LOL! Richard Murphy is a discredited nutter.

So I presume you're training to be a nurse or paramedic then to help solve the problems of lack of staff? Or maybe you are going to be a manager in the nhs to undo all the problems that have been caused? Are the doctor's striking or do they get paid enough? Who sees the patients on the frontline and does most of the work, including the physical and emotional toil and doesn't get paid what they are worth? Not the top dogs thats for sure. How about they pay the nurses etc more and the managers less. That would cover it.

And the tories have won.
the above is exactly what they wanted

Are people on this thread a bit thick and can't read, they keep saying about OP's other threads, the last thread wasn't the same OP, nor was the one that was deleted.

This is one of the most helpful replies on this thread. I think the problem is that so many nurses have been in the media, or even just on their own social media, stating they’re striking for opposite reasons to the ones you mention. I have personally seen posts from people, and heard them on the radio, saying they’re striking because they can’t afford to pay their bills, because they are relying on food banks, because they can’t buy their children Christmas presents this year. I think this is what is getting peoples backs up. There are many people who earn less than the equivalent of a band 6 AFC but who aren’t experiencing these struggles so it can seem disingenuous. I think if the narrative reflected what you’ve posted here, people would be understanding and support the strikes as they understand the logic and the long term goal.
When certain areas have been hearing on loop that a person cannot survive on £33k+ Minimum it will frustrate people and it will lead to less support.

Nurses should strike and get better pay etc. I'm also hoping as a carer we strike to for same reasons as nurses

@BabyFour2023 - what media do you read/listen to?! Sorry, but you’re part of the problem if the only media you read is just spouting that. Your choice to take so little genuine interest that so far you’ve just stopped at what your choice of media chooses to say on the subject.

Like I said, I’ve read peoples social media posts. Many peoples. This is something that’s been repeated again and again.

I take so little interest yet respond to a PP offering a different perspective. Ok then.

Sorry, @BabyFour2023 , it was rude of me, but it’s somewhat surprising that you have basically admitted to reading the same thing again and again until you read this thread. Did you really think the people working in the NHS right now think their only problem is pay?! Do you really think they just want danger money?

No, I haven’t admitted that in any way, shape or form. I said I’ve heard people on our local radio station and I’ve seen multiple social media posts / statuses saying the same thing.
of course I have seen and heard other angles but, as I pointed out in my initial sentence to the PP I replied to, I felt her reply was a really helpful insight. Obviously I’ve heard others talking about various issues but not as in depth.
literally; we don’t have enough staff. Of course I don’t think the single issue is pay.
My post was meant to be appreciative of the fact someone cared enough and is clearly passionate about the current state of her wards to post on here. It was better than; I need a food bank / There isn’t enough nurses in my hospital. I’ll bow out now.

Sorry for jumping on you, @BabyFour2023 .Yes, it was a very insightful post and your last post makes sense. I think a lot of the media reporting has been pretty dire.

Is he?

Could you please attack his arguments then? Rather than an ad-hom which isn't particularly helpful.

I've checked, and for example he is correct that freezing the tax allowances will raise billions in tax revenue, and it makes sense that freezing the tax allowances and giving bigger pay rises would raise more billions in tax revenue. Giving people who are on low wages a pay rise will result in more money going into the economy, hence more taxes.

His prediction that inflation will fall next year for various reasons seems backed up by other sources.

The problem with the media is that the strike is only about pay. Legally. And unions have to be careful when they talk about the strike to talk about what they want in terms of pay, the negotiations have to be only about pay. Because the government have been trying to make it very difficult to go on strike in the first place, if the legal basis for the strike is undermined by unions suggesting that it's actually about other stuff, they could be in trouble.

It'll be the same with teachers if the teacher ballot is in favour of striking. Teachers will want to highlight the intolerable working conditions and how the education system is failing our children, but the strike will be about pay, and that's what will have to be talked about when the strike is discussed.

I did not know that.
So there are legal issues about the reasons for the strike?
I never knew, I always thought that you could strike due to bad working conditions (like understaffing), on its own basis.
That explains quite a lot indeed!

@noblegiraffe there absolutely are other economists who do not accept the inflationary death spiral theory. It is only an economic theory, nothing more. It's just that it's so very convenient as a stick to beat people with if you're a Tory supporter like so many on this thread. The reality is very much more complex.

Calling a national strike requires an issue that affects all union members and pay affects all members.

You can strike about things like staffing levels but they would be more likely to be local strikes. You couldn't really have a national negotiation about staffing levels in individual hospitals.

Your very rude to people that disagree with you, one may think you revel in all this hence your post!

Has anyone told the University of Sheffield?

www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/whos-more-popular-nurses-and-ambulance-drivers-or-your-tory-government-mates-by-steve-barclay-20221222229513

Honestly I struggle with how anyone can’t think this whole situation is the fault of our conservative government. Even if things were done wrong under prior administrations (which I’m sure some were) they’ve been in charge for 12 years and the result is that healthcare provision is demonstrably worse now than it was when they came into power. They had someone on radio 4 yesterday representing the government trying to say the issue isn’t understaffing but increasing demand. The thing is with an ageing population it’s massively apparent there will be increased demand and you can’t just stick your fingers in your ears and ignore that then blame healthcare staff for eventually not being able to absorb any further work and leaving in their droves/going on strike. If we want healthcare for all with a large elderly population, increasing ability to save very sick babies and new (expensive) treatments for many illnesses we will have to accept that all of us (including those in the 20% bracket, those of us who only have unearned income and pensioners) are going to have to pay more tax. We might also want to have a look at all the money that has passed into the hands of the very wealthy during the pandemic under very questionable circumstances and how to claw some of it back. I support all the strikers. I’m massively pissed off the strikes in January are likely going to result our planned trip to London with our kids having to be cancelled and we will likely lose the money spent on theatre/museum tickets. I’m directing that anger at Mark Harper because he’s a complete wanker who has openly said he’d rather play chicken with the unions than compromise in any way. I’d quite like politicians running the country with better negotiation skills and if they could also have some empathy that would be nice too.