Re Ambulance/ nurse strikes

[TheWindIsChanging]

The last thread reached 1000 messages so assume that means it automatically closes any thread so thought I would continue the debate. My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes.
It's no great shock the usual suspects are screaming about the tories again waving tiny fists around red faced incandescent with rage. The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral which happened in the 70s further decreasing quality of life for all of us, not just the NHS workers.
Inflation is the main issue that causes issues with wages, and the reason for this is principally covid lockdowns which ( cue the drumroll) were brought in to protect the useless NHS... the irony that this same "service" is now complaining about economic problems which it helped to instigate is hilarious. I can't remember a single year in the last 20 where it wasn't nearly "bursting at the seems" and given the amount of tax payers money disappearing into it like the metaphorical black hole perhaps time it was scrapped. I don't see these same issues in other countries..a healthcare worker is not a typical profession as the basic goal is to save lives not abandoning ship. As others have said, all very well to type YABU, but I suspect the wind would change quickly if it was a relative who died as a consequence of these disgusting strikes which will cost lives make no mistake about it. That said, the same people raging about the state of the economy were labelling anyone not supporting lockdowns as a " granny killer" which anyone with an IQ over 70 could see would lead to this mess.

We'll have to agree to disagree on some of those points, Eleganz, though I'm definitely with you on others such as the overly bureaucratic procedures, the failed implementations and the obsession with appearance at the cost of effective management

In particular I'd take issue with the difficulties in recruiting high quality staff being down to pay. Professional recruitment is my background, and my own experience is that the very best staff wouldn't touch public sector jobs with a bargepole - partly because of what having it on their CVs would do to their prospects in the private sector, but mainly because no amount of money would make up for having to tolerate the overall ethos

There’s not much evidence of the OP understanding much tbh. She’s just goading rather than anything else.

Privileged? You have no idea what race, gender, age, country or financial status I have so keep virtue signalling with your silly phrases. I'll continue to laugh at you- people like you derail every thread throwing out the usual tired cliches. Healthcare is healthcare, not a box ticking exercise

One of the areas my trust specialise in is bariatric surgery, rarely gets cancelled as it's fast turnaround and brings in a fortune to the trust. It's an emotive topic

In terms of not understanding addictions, does personal responsibility not come in at all with personal health or should a chain smoking alcoholic eating junk food daily just continue knowing the NHS is there? I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be treated, but there is a difference between that and cancer which is often out of someones control.

Yeah, the fact that the roles pay £20k, £30k, £40k+ under their market rate has no bearing at all...

They don't need any reasons not to want to take a pay cut.

Regardless of what some people have told you, we'd get many more decent people in the public sector if the pay rates were competitive. We are losing plenty of people to the private sector so they must have something of value to them.

OP feels really strongly that those involved in saving people’s lives do not have the right to strike.

My 2 questions to OP:

Does anyone else (eg outside healthcare) ever have the right to strike, or are you against striking full stop?

How bad would working conditions need to be for you would consider striking to be okay? I’m genuinely curious.

Everyone should have the right to withdraw their labour.

I agree with you.

Do you have a link showing that 90% of the population have had covid? Even if that is true it shows that even if people haven't had it they will still have high levels of antibodies from vaccination i.e. vaccination works. Further evidence that vaccination provides antibodies is that levels are highest in older people who are more likely to be vaccinated and lower in children who are less likely to be vaccinated. Only 41.6% of 8 to 11 year olds had high levels compared with 94.1% of people over 80.

This was back in April, the figure is much higher now www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/22/seven-in-10-people-in-england-have-had-covid-research-shows-omicron

You say " Even if that is true it shows that even if people haven't had it they will still have high levels of antibodies from vaccination i.e. vaccination works" I don't know how you can reach that conclusion.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-long-do-covid-antibodies-stay-in-your-system 500 days is the time anti bodies stay after natural infection, so a high level of anti bodies isn't evidence the vaccine works

I'm quite impressed that I'm able to detail every thread just by pointing out that diversity does matter.

It is ok @TheWindIsChanging if you don't like how this thread turns out, you can start another identical thread like you did last time.

Population growth and an ageing population, yet A&E departments have been closed across the country. The demand on hospitals is immense. We need more hospitals and staff. That will take a long time.

In the first instance, to increase funding, I think GP appointments should be paid for in the same way we pay for NHS dentist visits. That should be the first step. There needs to be a cull on roles that are frankly not needed. These include PR, diversity and equality managers, director roles that in the past simply did not exist because they were not needed and are not required now. Huge salaries being paid for non medical personnel is absurd. You only have to look at a job site to look at the roles the NHS are advertising for. It certainly looks like the cash is being spent in the wrong areas.

Non jobs are cropping up all over the place and we are all paying for it.

Agreed

Whether strikes happen or not, the NHS cannot and will not be able to provide proper care for patients. I am a nurse and my automatic reaction to this, I’m sorry to say, was like an internal shrug. A day here and there might make things worse temporarily but I actually can’t imagine things being much worse. And if you don’t work in the NHS you won’t get what I mean. You have to work there to believe it. Because it’s that bad.

Come and do a day of work experience with us for a day and I guarantee you will soon change your tune. Look after 10 patients on your own for 12 hours on your feet without proper breaks and see what you think then. What would you do?

Would you simply resign or would you strike first??

If pay and working conditions don’t improve many more nurses will leave. The real point of voting to strike is that it is our way of providing the government another option before we walk off the job permanently. When that continues to happen, what will everyone do?

We are not doing it without good reason. It’s a last resort because we literally can’t take it anymore. You complain about how badly you will be affected by a few days of strikes yet you don’t care about the health of those striking. You are completely lacking in compassion

The government can either increase pay, improve working conditions and staffing… OR they can refuse to do so and lose more staff permanently. Honestly, it is such a double standard to think that nurses do not even have the right to strike.

A similar mindset is what has led to this situation deteriorating as far as it has. Nurses apparently don’t deserve to be treated well, yet we’re still expected to look after you when you’re sick.

The level of arrogance is mind blowing.

When people resort to name calling, I assume they know they are wrong.

Your initial post is clearly copied and pasted from the last thread on this topic.

Go away " Stompy" , I said earlier I posted at the end of the last thread but havent started any other thread bar this one

@TheWindIsChanging its not just about money though. I’ve listened to nurses who have given interviews stating they are being left on their own with a ward of patients and no one is listening. if you think it’s safer to just allow that to continue then it’s that attitude that’s part of the problem because right now patients are being failed in their care and nurses are being failed in turn. Factor in that the government don’t seem to want to pay them appropriately but are happy to leave them and their PINs at risk says it all. I highly doubt there are many people on here who would happily go into work knowing they were being left solely responsible for patients lives and care, whilst paying to be nurses with their registration fees and their student loans. The idea they should just put up with it is ridiculous because that’s also saying we are happy for our loved ones to receive less than ideal care.

This.

Likely outing but a few weeks ago I had to watch paramedics try and save my dm’s life. They didn’t succeed but it brought home to me what a challenging job they do. Not only trying to help my dm, but also trying to prise essential info out of me - a useless relative in shock. They were in a life of death situation but remained kind, compassionate and did everything they could. They were then forced to hang around writing up notes and waiting for the police to arrive (unexpected death) which took up more of their precious time.

I have no doubt that if anyone was at death’s door they would be the first to leave the picket line and rush off to help. They aren’t cold or heartless, if they were they wouldn’t be doing the job they do for piss all money in the first place. They want better pay because they know the current conditions are dangerous and they want more people to remain in the role to ensure that people aren’t failed in their hour of need.

What paramedics do isn’t easy. I have an office based job and outearn them significantly which is an utter travesty given the level of responsibility they hold. They deserve more money and more respect. I fully support them and will continue to do so whatever the outcome.

I always find it interesting that MPs all seem to agree that vocational workers definitely earn enough, but you don’t see any of them willing to undertake any role for that amount of money.

Go away " Stompy"

Going full five-year-old now, OP?

I wholeheartedly agree with this suggestion

No, I'm agreeing they will die.

But it's your fault for not being a healthcare worker....

Very big semantic, moral, ethical and legal difference between 'not saving' and what you said, which was 'killing'.

Except that multiple studies show far better patient outcomes and reduced mortality, when nurses on wards are university educated.

Nevermind the fact that it would be at odds with the vast, vast majority of countries (and at odds with the training of all AHP's on the same pay band as nurses) Making becoming a nurse in the UK even less desirable.

I’m so sorry for your loss in such circumstances. I hope you have all the support you need