Page 16 | Re Ambulance/ nurse strikes

TheWindIsChanging · 2022-12-21T15:17:34+00:00

The last thread reached 1000 messages so assume that means it automatically closes any thread so thought I would continue the debate. My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes. It's no great shock the usual suspects are screaming about the tories again waving tiny fists around red faced incandescent with rage. The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral which happened in the 70s further decreasing quality of life for all of us, not just the NHS workers. Inflation is the main issue that causes issues with wages, and the reason for this is principally covid lockdowns which ( cue the drumroll) were brought in to protect the useless NHS... the irony that this same "service" is now complaining about economic problems which it helped to instigate is hilarious. I can't remember a single year in the last 20 where it wasn't nearly "bursting at the seems" and given the amount of tax payers money disappearing into it like the metaphorical black hole perhaps time it was scrapped. I don't see these same issues in other countries..a healthcare worker is not a typical profession as the basic goal is to save lives not abandoning ship. As others have said, all very well to type YABU, but I suspect the wind would change quickly if it was a relative who died as a consequence of these disgusting strikes which will cost lives make no mistake about it. That said, the same people raging about the state of the economy were labelling anyone not supporting lockdowns as a " granny killer" which anyone with an IQ over 70 could see would lead to this mess.

BabyFour2023 · 22/12/2022 14:27

noblegiraffe · 22/12/2022 09:22

The problem with the media is that the strike is only about pay. Legally. And unions have to be careful when they talk about the strike to talk about what they want in terms of pay, the negotiations have to be only about pay. Because the government have been trying to make it very difficult to go on strike in the first place, if the legal basis for the strike is undermined by unions suggesting that it's actually about other stuff, they could be in trouble.

It'll be the same with teachers if the teacher ballot is in favour of striking. Teachers will want to highlight the intolerable working conditions and how the education system is failing our children, but the strike will be about pay, and that's what will have to be talked about when the strike is discussed.

Thank you for posting this, I wasn’t aware of this.

DontStopMeNow7 · 22/12/2022 14:30

whatkatydid2013 · 22/12/2022 14:12

Honestly I struggle with how anyone can’t think this whole situation is the fault of our conservative government. Even if things were done wrong under prior administrations (which I’m sure some were) they’ve been in charge for 12 years and the result is that healthcare provision is demonstrably worse now than it was when they came into power. They had someone on radio 4 yesterday representing the government trying to say the issue isn’t understaffing but increasing demand. The thing is with an ageing population it’s massively apparent there will be increased demand and you can’t just stick your fingers in your ears and ignore that then blame healthcare staff for eventually not being able to absorb any further work and leaving in their droves/going on strike. If we want healthcare for all with a large elderly population, increasing ability to save very sick babies and new (expensive) treatments for many illnesses we will have to accept that all of us (including those in the 20% bracket, those of us who only have unearned income and pensioners) are going to have to pay more tax. We might also want to have a look at all the money that has passed into the hands of the very wealthy during the pandemic under very questionable circumstances and how to claw some of it back. I support all the strikers. I’m massively pissed off the strikes in January are likely going to result our planned trip to London with our kids having to be cancelled and we will likely lose the money spent on theatre/museum tickets. I’m directing that anger at Mark Harper because he’s a complete wanker who has openly said he’d rather play chicken with the unions than compromise in any way. I’d quite like politicians running the country with better negotiation skills and if they could also have some empathy that would be nice too.

^OMG Thank You

You nailed it
I 100% agree

DontStopMeNow7 · 22/12/2022 16:06

Blossomtoes · 21/12/2022 23:02

Except that multiple studies show far better patient outcomes and reduced mortality, when nurses on wards are university educated.

But they don’t show why. The alternative could be that nurses still get degrees but get their fees paid and are paid In training in exchange for an obligatory period of work in the NHS. Personally I find it scandalous that undergraduate nurses are exploited as unpaid labour.

I started nursing school in my late thirties and qualified during the start of the pandemic. I was one of the “lucky” ones that got in before Jeremy Hunt scrapped the bursary. This means my fees were paid and I got about £500 per month in bursary and £250 per month student maintenance loan. Tbh I don’t know what I was thinking because I had to work on top of my 37.5 hour weeks of placement or being in uni full time (degree is 50% placement hours / 50% coursework and exams). I actually did more paid working hours than student nursing hours in order to survive. I stuck with it because I love the job and my patients.

I really genuinely don’t know how any mature single student would do all of that now without the bursary. It would be impossible. Another example of the Tories cutting spending and reducing the workforce.

I have never worked so hard in my life plus on top of contributing to the workforce, you’re being assessed and getting paper signed off. I completed about 3200 hours of work as a student nurse. What do I have to show for it now?….

Right after my degree I went straight out to work again as a healthcare assistant while I waited for my nursing pin. I was sent by an agency to a covid ward where I was promised full PPE. This ward had been created just to look after covid positive patients and as there were no staff in the Trust available, they had to hire numerous agency staff to run the ward. We were not provided with/allowed proper face masks and after 12 hours in close proximity to these patients (toileting, washing, dressing, feeding, mobilising), two days later I had symptoms, day 3 I tested positive and by day 5 I was more sick than I’ve ever been in my life.

Ive been unable to work consistently as a nurse, and two years later I am still sick, have spent numerous months in bed also resulting in depression and anxiety effectively disabled by long covid, and facing medical discharge from my very first nursing job. On top of that there were times working in A&E and ITU during the pandemic which are too surreal to even talk about and I suffer from nightmares.

Apart from a degree and the qualification (which I am proud of) I am in even more debt due to having to borrow money during my original covid sickness when I was unemployed, just so that I could pay the rent. (Benefits do not cover basic living expenses).

I have no idea what is going to happen but if the last few years have taught me, in order to recover my health I will likely need to take a break from nursing. The potential issue with that is if you don’t work enough hours within a 3 year period, you can’t re validate and your pin expires.

No good deed goes unpunished.

This really isn’t just about pay. But how much does the government and, dare I say it, appear to value nurses?

JusteanBiscuits · 22/12/2022 16:57

Maybe both nurses and ambulance staff should start only working what they should work. Only do the work they should do, only work the hours they are employed to work, take the breaks they need and are entitled to. That would hit everything so so much more than one day of strike. Maybe close all wards that have an unsafe staffing level and send the patients elsewhere. Maybe send ambulances in order of the calls, rather than prioritise them.
Or maybe we could pay for the extra hours worked. The (unpaid) lunchbreaks worked through. Pay for their PIN registration every year.

I would be so proud if either of my children became a nurse, or ambulance worker. But I would, and do, very very strong discourage it. I don't want my kids going into healthcare - not because it's not an amazing profession, but because I don't want my kids utterly broken by the understaffing and pressures. And by the ignorant and awful crap that is spread by the usual suspects.
The current government has done nothing to help the NHS. Yes, it does need increased work around efficiency and spending. But they don't receive any support. All they receive are the threats of their service being sold to the lowest bidder every few years. Level of service isn't taken into account - just who can do it cheapest.

I've had the pleasure (coughs) of using private medical care recently. I transferred it back to the NHS as the level of care was abysmal. Oh, the sandwiches and coffee was great, but the jumps that I, while quite ill, had to jump through to get appointments was making me worse. And the wait for follow up care was longer private than on the NHS!!!

Bepis · 22/12/2022 18:09

I think it needs to be recognised that emergency and healthcare personnel are effectively serving the country. Without them, we would be in a big mess and it's time appreciation was shown to what they do and what they have to endure.

I feel that their training could be funded by the government if they agreed to work for the NHS for a certain length of time, for example, 5 years at least.

I also don't believe a yearly fee should have to be paid to maintain licenses. This should be provided for by the government as these workers are serving the public.

Cheshiresun · 22/12/2022 18:14

I agree. As a medical professional, I would never (and have never) considered industrial action.

The problem is too, since Agenda for Change, Nurses are on the same pay scales as other NHS staff, over a million of them I think. So it's not possible just to give nurses (or paramedics) or one discipline of staff a pay rise. That is not saying they don't deserve it. Everyone wants a pay rise, if one sector was given one, others may strike for a pay rise too. In the long term it would lead to higher taxes, higher prices etc.

Police and the Army are not allowed to strike. I do not think fire officers or NHS staff should be able to either, along with other essential services. As I said before, speaking as a healthcare worker myself.

FallSpringing · 22/12/2022 18:19

HeyBlaby · 21/12/2022 22:14

Except that multiple studies show far better patient outcomes and reduced mortality, when nurses on wards are university educated.

Nevermind the fact that it would be at odds with the vast, vast majority of countries (and at odds with the training of all AHP's on the same pay band as nurses) Making becoming a nurse in the UK even less desirable.

Show quote history

I also question the value of this when the yearly fees are now nearly 10,000. I know it's a contentious issue, but I wonder if it would make nurse training more attractive to bring back the extended diploma. I work in HE, and the nursing entry requirements are much lower. Also AHPs, whilst under AFC, are not in the same pay band as nurses, they tend to progress up the bandings more quickly.

DuncinToffee · 22/12/2022 18:20

In June 2017 309 MPs voted to give nurses a proper pay rise. 323 MPs voted against it, including every Tory MP except one.

When the result of the vote was announced & the Tories found they had succeeded in blocking the nurses pay rise, they cheered.

twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1603433860796145665?t=FnxI8hswUs77soUEaPa-_g&s=19

Flipthefrugal · 22/12/2022 18:22

Cheshiresun · 22/12/2022 18:14

I agree. As a medical professional, I would never (and have never) considered industrial action.

The problem is too, since Agenda for Change, Nurses are on the same pay scales as other NHS staff, over a million of them I think. So it's not possible just to give nurses (or paramedics) or one discipline of staff a pay rise. That is not saying they don't deserve it. Everyone wants a pay rise, if one sector was given one, others may strike for a pay rise too. In the long term it would lead to higher taxes, higher prices etc.

Police and the Army are not allowed to strike. I do not think fire officers or NHS staff should be able to either, along with other essential services. As I said before, speaking as a healthcare worker myself.

You don't decide whether you are going to strike though.
As previously said Derogation and complex legal negotiations take place.
The vast majority of acute areas will be derogated and so those staff are working as usual.
They cannot strike even if they want to.
Others in less acute areas can strike or present themselves to work in Derogated areas.
They cannot do their normal job, the Trust would be fined.
As if nurses are just going to decide not to go in!
It's far more complex.

CherApparent · 22/12/2022 18:35

FallSpringing · 22/12/2022 18:19

I also question the value of this when the yearly fees are now nearly 10,000. I know it's a contentious issue, but I wonder if it would make nurse training more attractive to bring back the extended diploma. I work in HE, and the nursing entry requirements are much lower. Also AHPs, whilst under AFC, are not in the same pay band as nurses, they tend to progress up the bandings more quickly.

Show quote history

AHPs, whilst under AFC, are not in the same pay band as nurses, they tend to progress up the bandings more quickly.

Yes we are, and not necessarily.

Blossomtoes · 22/12/2022 18:37

Stompythedinosaur · 21/12/2022 23:17

It is very very common for nurses to decide very early in their career that they want to leave, that nursing if not the profession they thought it was. The drop out rather in the first couple of years after qualifying is very high.

Do we really think that forcing miserable junior nurses to stay in a job they feel unable to cope with is the solution? How much help would they realistically be? They will end up off sick due to stress I imagine.

The only feasible solution is to address some of the reasons that nurses want to leave, and that primarily comes down to improving staffing levels and retaining experienced staff so that new nurses can be supported to find their feet and feel adequately recompensed for the work they do.

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Surely if we trained nurses at no cost to themselves and asked them to commit to a period working in the NHS staffing levels would automatically improve.

orchid220 · 22/12/2022 18:42

DontStopMeNow7 · 22/12/2022 16:06

I started nursing school in my late thirties and qualified during the start of the pandemic. I was one of the “lucky” ones that got in before Jeremy Hunt scrapped the bursary. This means my fees were paid and I got about £500 per month in bursary and £250 per month student maintenance loan. Tbh I don’t know what I was thinking because I had to work on top of my 37.5 hour weeks of placement or being in uni full time (degree is 50% placement hours / 50% coursework and exams). I actually did more paid working hours than student nursing hours in order to survive. I stuck with it because I love the job and my patients.

I really genuinely don’t know how any mature single student would do all of that now without the bursary. It would be impossible. Another example of the Tories cutting spending and reducing the workforce.

I have never worked so hard in my life plus on top of contributing to the workforce, you’re being assessed and getting paper signed off. I completed about 3200 hours of work as a student nurse. What do I have to show for it now?….

Right after my degree I went straight out to work again as a healthcare assistant while I waited for my nursing pin. I was sent by an agency to a covid ward where I was promised full PPE. This ward had been created just to look after covid positive patients and as there were no staff in the Trust available, they had to hire numerous agency staff to run the ward. We were not provided with/allowed proper face masks and after 12 hours in close proximity to these patients (toileting, washing, dressing, feeding, mobilising), two days later I had symptoms, day 3 I tested positive and by day 5 I was more sick than I’ve ever been in my life.

Ive been unable to work consistently as a nurse, and two years later I am still sick, have spent numerous months in bed also resulting in depression and anxiety effectively disabled by long covid, and facing medical discharge from my very first nursing job. On top of that there were times working in A&E and ITU during the pandemic which are too surreal to even talk about and I suffer from nightmares.

Apart from a degree and the qualification (which I am proud of) I am in even more debt due to having to borrow money during my original covid sickness when I was unemployed, just so that I could pay the rent. (Benefits do not cover basic living expenses).

I have no idea what is going to happen but if the last few years have taught me, in order to recover my health I will likely need to take a break from nursing. The potential issue with that is if you don’t work enough hours within a 3 year period, you can’t re validate and your pin expires.

No good deed goes unpunished.

This really isn’t just about pay. But how much does the government and, dare I say it, appear to value nurses?

Show quote history

I'm so sorry. Your story makes feel so angry with the idiots on this thread (and others) that deny/minimise the seriousness of COVID.

pointythings · 22/12/2022 18:45

@Cheshiresun oh do go away with the endless repetition of the inflationary death spiral theory. It's a theory. Other economic theories about inflation are available. Current inflation is not wage driven.

Your lack of compassion for your colleagues is concerning and repellent.

mbosnz · 22/12/2022 18:49

I worry about indenturement (so bonding employees for a set period of time to 'repay' the cost of their qualification), as a way to avoid actually improving safety for both health care workers, and patients by way of improving conditions.

SinnerBoy · 22/12/2022 18:55

DontStopMeNow7

Ive been unable to work consistently as a nurse, and two years later I am still sick, have spent numerous months in bed also resulting in depression and anxiety effectively disabled by long covid, and facing medical discharge from my very first nursing job.

Oh no, that's terrible for you and not only you. What a waste that you can't work in the essential job you love, because the cheapskate bastards didn't get you effective PPE.

My sister is a school nurse, she'd been a TA when her kids were young, but reactivated her qualifications. She's avoided it, despite doing loads of tests, from the off. Her school provided her with a "moon suit." Several of her colleagues, teachers, caught it. They're all women in their 50s.

None of them were really ill with the actual disease, but three of them developed Long Covid. One was signed off last year, after 6 months, she could barely answer the door. The other two are back, part time. I hope you can recover at some point and get yourself back.

Lucimaya · 22/12/2022 18:57

Cheshiresun · 22/12/2022 18:14

I agree. As a medical professional, I would never (and have never) considered industrial action.

The problem is too, since Agenda for Change, Nurses are on the same pay scales as other NHS staff, over a million of them I think. So it's not possible just to give nurses (or paramedics) or one discipline of staff a pay rise. That is not saying they don't deserve it. Everyone wants a pay rise, if one sector was given one, others may strike for a pay rise too. In the long term it would lead to higher taxes, higher prices etc.

Police and the Army are not allowed to strike. I do not think fire officers or NHS staff should be able to either, along with other essential services. As I said before, speaking as a healthcare worker myself.

Totally this.

Get back to work and stop striking.

pointythings · 22/12/2022 19:06

If you stop people from striking, the next step they will take is work to rule. And it is possible to play this cleverly so that it is just as disruptive as a strike, because the public sector depends on goodwill and people working more and harder than their hours. It's easy to say 'stop striking and suck up yet another massive pay cut', but people have reached the end of their rope. And 'action short of a strike' can be kept up for much longer, with a much worse impact.

mbosnz · 22/12/2022 19:08

And of course, the other option to 'work to rule', is 'leave this field of work altogether', or 'leave this country to work in another'. We don't really want that, do we?

ThisAgainForTheMillionthTime · 22/12/2022 19:15

I totally agree with you and think these people are in the wrong jobs if they think more pay is more important than peoples lives. There are bound to be lives lost because of these strikes. How they can stand on their picket lines and live with that on their conscience I really don’t know.
Lots of people want better conditions. Imagine if fire fighters did the same thing -“ no fire trucks coming to you, if your house burns down, tough, but if we bother to answer the phone and there’s enough people trapped we might come, if not phone the local clowns they can throw some buckets of water on it”.

pointythings · 22/12/2022 19:19

@ThisAgainForTheMillionthTime maybe we should just not pay these people at all, because it's a vocation. Or maybe we should just continue the race to the bottom where we all get less and less while a small number of people get riher and richer and laugh at us sucker.

Or maybe we should finally stand up to them and say 'enough'? I know where I stand. 12 years of year on year pay cuts - that's more than enough. If people like you won't see that, maybe look in the mirror and wonder where your conscience went.

malificent7 · 22/12/2022 19:19

Well i'm thinking about leaving so i can get decent pay elsewhere. I am passionate, I got a first, but if I am not appreciated I will take my skills elsewhere.

mbosnz · 22/12/2022 19:20

Mmmmmm, but we're already tens of thousands of people short in these jobs. And if pay and conditions continue to be as bad, and/or deteriorate yet further, I imagine we'll be even more people short. . .

How can we live with people not having enough to live without assistance when they are doing such important and necessary work, feeling constantly vulnerable when at work to loss of their job due to the working conditions being so poor that patients are at risk, worrying that patients might die because they were unable to provide the necessary level of care, on our conscience?

Bepis · 22/12/2022 19:24

malificent7 · 22/12/2022 19:19

Well i'm thinking about leaving so i can get decent pay elsewhere. I am passionate, I got a first, but if I am not appreciated I will take my skills elsewhere.

I can't really blame you with how things are but I really hope things get sorted for you all. I have huge respect for what you do.

noblegiraffe · 22/12/2022 19:26

Imagine if fire fighters did the same thing

I remember the fire fighter strike. The army rolled out Green Goddesses.

mbosnz · 22/12/2022 19:26

I think what really sticks in far too many Tory craws, is the hoi polloi not knowing their place, and simply tugging their forelocks and getting on with being the economic units they are, without complaint, needs, wants, hopes, or dreams.

Florence Nightingale could afford for nursing to be a vocation, she was from a very supportive, upper middle class family, didn't marry or have a family to support. Most nurses these days don't have quite that level of luxury.