Page 16 | Why is it taboo to discuss finances on mumsnet if your considered rich ?

Hawkins001 · 2022-12-17T19:20:09+00:00

don't want to make this a thread about a thread, but if your earning say around 90k etc, as an example why is it taboo to try to discuss spending priorities in the current climate ? we live in a capitalist society, and their has always been different levels of wealth across all sectors of society, So is it a case of everyone has to wait until a certain level has been achieved across society before the rich or perceived rich can discuss spending priorities on mumsnet ?

whumpthereitis · 19/12/2022 16:02

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 15:48

It’s absolutely not bullshit. The facts about income are available for anyone to read. Thinking 90k is a lot of money is not “my perspective” or bullshit, it’s a documented fact. It has nothing to do with relative wealth compared to Ethiopia. I read somewhere recently about the actual average or median income levels in London and it’s small, much less than people might think.

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It being a lot of money comparative to the median income of the UK does not mean people aren’t struggling on it now due to the cost of living crisis. People who could support their normal lifestyle (not living beyond their means, either) on that amount are now finding themselves struggling to do so. Unsurprisingly this is going to be cause for complaint for a lot of people, as they’re taking a hit through no fault of their own.

no one welcomes a drop in lifestyle, even if you think they should due to your own resentment of what they could afford as their normal.

Original poster

Hawkins001 · 19/12/2022 16:04

GertrudeBell · 18/12/2022 08:37

Interesting thread which illustrates OP’s point; it’s very difficult to start a thread about higher earners without having half of Mumsnet jumping down your back.

Theres is a lot of talk about tone deafness and the idea that people who are not well off shouldn’t have to read threads about people with money.

I would agree if this was a site specifically aimed at those who are struggling; but it’s not. Much of MN’s advertising income is derived from the size of its audience and the fact that it enables advertisers to access middle class shoppers. But then it seems that the expectation is that those MNers will stay quiet about anything which discusses their privilege.

I think it is a really unhealthy herd mentality. It makes the site very one dimensional and dull. I also think it encourages fragility; if someone finds it difficult to see threads about a MNer buying a house for £1.5m, is it also difficult to see expensive houses in real life; watch television showing pictures of anything aspirational; see expensive cars on the street and friends who are well dressed etc? There will always be people who are better off; that’s just life.

I am doing well now but have struggled financially at times and when I did I liked the escapism of knowing that there were better things out there and aspiring to a different life.

The politics of envy also always looks only in one direction. Every single MNer is fortunate compared to the poorest both in this country and especially around the world. Applying the logic of those who object to threads mentioning wealth, there would be no MN as we should not talk about anything which might appear trivial to those worse off than us. Of course the reality is that those posters do want to continue to use MN but that their position is fundamentally hypocritical.

A problematic side effect of this hard mentality is that it is seen as acceptable to demonise the wealthy and in the context of MN to attempt to shut down their discussions or attempts to seek support. Eg the stuff about the OP’s spelling error. Why is this ok?

As is illustrated by this thread, this contempt is often coupled with misconceptions about how much money constitutes being so rich that someone is no longer entitled to have financial problems. Eg the example of £90k income used by the OP; if you happen to live in London this will buy a moderately poor quality of life as the vast majority of that income will go into housing costs. There is no room for cars, holidays, private education. Increases to the cost of food and utilities will absolutely be a source of stress. Yes they could theoretically move out of London to go somewhere cheaper, but leaving your home, family, friends, kids’ schools and job is also massively stressful and so people in that situation will seek support. As this thread demonstrates, unfortunately, the knee jerk response from many on here is to tell them that it’s their own fault for mismanaging their money or to sneer that the problem doesn’t exist (“diamond shoes too tight” etc).

Those who are more seriously wealthy also don’t deserve the opprobrium they receive on here. It is not a crime to be well off and indeed their spending habits help to support society; eg a MNer who has nannies, cleaners and gardeners, or is engaged in a luxurious renovation, all help to create work and wealth for others but are likely to be slated on here whether or not they are a good human being.

It boils down to nasty tribalism, and an absence of critical thinking and kindness, and makes MN a worse place.

Very much appreciated for this thank you.

OP posts:

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:05

girlmom21 · 19/12/2022 15:54

£30,700 per household? How do you even survive in London on that?

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Yes, the figures are per household. The table is a little out of date, being from 2019, but not hugely so.

Annabel073 · 19/12/2022 16:08

As many Pp have said, the demographic on here is no longer predominantly middle class, most are struggling and seem to not like others having something they do not.

I'm not sure the demographic on this forum was ever really 'middle class', to me it was always predominantly 'middle earner' and the current threads reinforce this.

susan12345678 · 19/12/2022 16:08

no one welcomes a drop in lifestyle, even if you think they should due to your own resentment of what they could afford as their normal

I agree that it's all relative. I can understand why people are upset by flippant references to objectively large amounts, but everyone is entitled to discuss their own situation and concerns, so it's difficult.

IRL I have friends much richer and much poorer than me, and some with similar incomes. I'm careful about what I say in front of poorer friends and try not to arrange get-togethers that involve spending too much money. Most people are probably the same. But forums feel anonymous, so perhaps people don't have the same reservations.

Wasn't there a thread recently suggesting a sub-forum here for high earners? It caused a massive bun-fight, as I recall?

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:10

whumpthereitis · 19/12/2022 16:02

It being a lot of money comparative to the median income of the UK does not mean people aren’t struggling on it now due to the cost of living crisis. People who could support their normal lifestyle (not living beyond their means, either) on that amount are now finding themselves struggling to do so. Unsurprisingly this is going to be cause for complaint for a lot of people, as they’re taking a hit through no fault of their own.

no one welcomes a drop in lifestyle, even if you think they should due to your own resentment of what they could afford as their normal.

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I’m not at all resentful. I live just fine in London on nothing like 90k. I just think people should be more aware of what normal is, when there are facts to document it, like it or not.

whumpthereitis · 19/12/2022 16:12

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:10

I’m not at all resentful. I live just fine in London on nothing like 90k. I just think people should be more aware of what normal is, when there are facts to document it, like it or not.

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okay, and you’re perfectly entitled to think that. Just as other people are perfectly entitled to judge it by their own standards and the discernible impact they’re seeing it have on on their lives. You not liking that is your problem.

TyphoonSpagoon · 19/12/2022 16:25

Annabel073 · 19/12/2022 16:08

As many Pp have said, the demographic on here is no longer predominantly middle class, most are struggling and seem to not like others having something they do not.

I'm not sure the demographic on this forum was ever really 'middle class', to me it was always predominantly 'middle earner' and the current threads reinforce this.

5+ years ago it was very MC, to the point it was joked about.

Over the last few years this has significantly shifted, a recent sponsored post where there was an online tool to show what % of the population you were in for certain financial factors was quite surprising, many were in the lowest 10% for financial security, savings, earnings etc.

I chuckled at the post a few months ago where the OP was astounded at her rich aunt who was earning….£30k a year…many couldn’t fathom the untold riches of such a high salary! I’d be struggling on such a low amount.

xogossipgirlxo · 19/12/2022 16:28

whumpthereitis · 19/12/2022 16:02

It being a lot of money comparative to the median income of the UK does not mean people aren’t struggling on it now due to the cost of living crisis. People who could support their normal lifestyle (not living beyond their means, either) on that amount are now finding themselves struggling to do so. Unsurprisingly this is going to be cause for complaint for a lot of people, as they’re taking a hit through no fault of their own.

no one welcomes a drop in lifestyle, even if you think they should due to your own resentment of what they could afford as their normal.

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No, this is what I meant (more or less). That at 90k a year you can't support yourself for years to come when shit happens. It's comfortable enough to save for pension, rainy day fund, pay off mortgage etc. Let's be honest,currently having combined income of 45-50k a year, while i.e. having 2 kids is barely manageable. So what it's median. It doesn't mean it gives you good life. It only proves that median salary in the UK is shit, and that's it.

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:29

whumpthereitis · 19/12/2022 16:12

okay, and you’re perfectly entitled to think that. Just as other people are perfectly entitled to judge it by their own standards and the discernible impact they’re seeing it have on on their lives. You not liking that is your problem.

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I have no problems with it. I don’t care either way. It’s those who are “rich” who don’t like to hear or read the truth of what real, documented normal is - that’s their problem to not like.

xogossipgirlxo · 19/12/2022 16:30

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:29

I have no problems with it. I don’t care either way. It’s those who are “rich” who don’t like to hear or read the truth of what real, documented normal is - that’s their problem to not like.

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It's your "truth".

Annabel073 · 19/12/2022 16:33

@5+ years ago it was very MC, to the point it was joked about.

Even back then it was plainly obvious that the majority of posters were very average, despite what they claimed.

xogossipgirlxo · 19/12/2022 16:35

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 15:48

It’s absolutely not bullshit. The facts about income are available for anyone to read. Thinking 90k is a lot of money is not “my perspective” or bullshit, it’s a documented fact. It has nothing to do with relative wealth compared to Ethiopia. I read somewhere recently about the actual average or median income levels in London and it’s small, much less than people might think.

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Median doesn't say anything about comfort of living. Are you comfortably saving, paying off mortgage, paying for nursery etc. while making i.e.33k annualy? That's the thing. Only because it's median, it doesn't mean it's good pay. It only means that distribution of goods is very uneven. Some people get heck loads of money (and I mean million pounds a year, not 90k), whilst ICU nurse gets 30k.

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:38

xogossipgirlxo · 19/12/2022 16:30

It's your "truth".

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It’s not “my truth”. It’s documented fact -again.

www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/Documents/Borough_statistics/Income_poverty_and_welfare/income_2019_l.pdf

xogossipgirlxo · 19/12/2022 16:41

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:38

It’s not “my truth”. It’s documented fact -again.

www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/Documents/Borough_statistics/Income_poverty_and_welfare/income_2019_l.pdf

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Still, it doesn't say anywhere that you can comfortably live off this amount of money. And this is my point. It's nowhere near comfortable income, especially in London. It's rather shit.

whumpthereitis · 19/12/2022 16:43

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:38

It’s not “my truth”. It’s documented fact -again.

www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/Documents/Borough_statistics/Income_poverty_and_welfare/income_2019_l.pdf

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And? Doesn’t mean people aren't now struggling to support themselves and their normal lifestyle on that due to the cost of living crisis. They can be struggling to afford the things they easily could before. Hence the frustration and complaints.

Twopenceworthtoday · 19/12/2022 16:45

I've posted for financial help in the past under another name and been roasted so know what you are talking about.

My view is money is just numbers and I've come here to discuss the maths. I've not come here to make anyone feel inferior or superior by those figures. I do not think wealth = what you're worth. Unfortunately our society and marketing always plays to this insecurity to sell more shit.

Don't buy into guys. Your worth is not determined by your financial stats.

If we as a society stopped this line that money = worth I don't think people would be triggered so much by what other people have.

Peacelily38 · 19/12/2022 16:54

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:29

I have no problems with it. I don’t care either way. It’s those who are “rich” who don’t like to hear or read the truth of what real, documented normal is - that’s their problem to not like.

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But I don't think people are disillusioned with what 'normal' is.

We already know that it's the case that someone on 90k is in the top 5 percent of earners so then it's not likely that the median wage will be high.

People have different views on what constitutes someone to be 'rich.'

Because everyone's lives are different everyone wants different standards of living, they might be more or less, the area they live in can be more or less, everyone has different responsibilities.
i.e children/elderly relatives all situations will be different.

Everyone has different wishes for the future, some save hard into a pension some want to put money away to save and some people just spend what they have without worrying for the future, some live pay check to pay check.

Everyone is different.

It's all down to different perspectives and regions that you live.

But I don't think its right that you think that only your view matters and that you have decided its rich so that's, that because 'the rich' don't know the truth of what's normal.
I have lived on NMW and a higher wage so I don't think my perspective is that I don't understand what's normal, I have been there.

Rich to me is owning your property out right and a larger wage, that you never have to worry.

On 60k take home you will still likely have a mortgage, depending on where you live you may be comfortable, depending on your situation. Others may not.

Krakenwakes · 19/12/2022 16:56

whumpthereitis · 19/12/2022 16:43

And? Doesn’t mean people aren't now struggling to support themselves and their normal lifestyle on that due to the cost of living crisis. They can be struggling to afford the things they easily could before. Hence the frustration and complaints.

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Yes, of course people may struggle to adjust, but it still doesn’t mean they are not rich.

notsorich · 19/12/2022 16:56

If you're comfortable financially, you need to be mindful towards others who are not. E.g. if someone posts about how cold it is, it's thoughtless to suggest putting the heating on higher and/or buying a fancy coat. You have to always be aware that others might earn less than you (but that's a rule you apply to real life, so shouldn't be hard to remember).

However, I don't understand why there can't be threads (or boards) specifically targeted at higher earners. That way, anyone clicking on a thread is choosing to read about people with a certain level of income.

Everyone has struggles, no matter how much they earn. Different struggles, sometimes more 'worthy' than others, but they're all struggles.

I also think there are quite a few angry white British MNers who don't understand that there are plenty of us on high salaries who are struggling because of the cultural expectation to send money home to support relatives who have no other form of income. I want to quit my job every day, but I can't, because then other people suffer. I live with a huge amount of pressure and guilt.

People on all salary bandings have struggles. Let's not play competitive misery.

xogossipgirlxo · 19/12/2022 17:01

Peacelily38 · 19/12/2022 16:54

But I don't think people are disillusioned with what 'normal' is.

We already know that it's the case that someone on 90k is in the top 5 percent of earners so then it's not likely that the median wage will be high.

People have different views on what constitutes someone to be 'rich.'

Because everyone's lives are different everyone wants different standards of living, they might be more or less, the area they live in can be more or less, everyone has different responsibilities.
i.e children/elderly relatives all situations will be different.

Everyone has different wishes for the future, some save hard into a pension some want to put money away to save and some people just spend what they have without worrying for the future, some live pay check to pay check.

Everyone is different.

It's all down to different perspectives and regions that you live.

But I don't think its right that you think that only your view matters and that you have decided its rich so that's, that because 'the rich' don't know the truth of what's normal.
I have lived on NMW and a higher wage so I don't think my perspective is that I don't understand what's normal, I have been there.

Rich to me is owning your property out right and a larger wage, that you never have to worry.

On 60k take home you will still likely have a mortgage, depending on where you live you may be comfortable, depending on your situation. Others may not.

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I agree with you. Rich people buy flats in Hyde Park for cash. Or they splash money on brand new top cars without waiting for good finance option or thinking "I'd rather buy decent 5 years Volkswagen". These people don't make 90k a year. Statistics only say that average household income in London is 30k. They should rather ask how people live on this sort of money- do they have some savings? Can they afford children? Can they afford paying in to pension scheme at work? Can they afford mortgage even for 2 bedroom flat? This would give better idea how much you can buy and save with this income.

Mangolist · 19/12/2022 17:09

In a similar vein, there was a thread about someone being upset they had only received a 2% pay rise. So many responses along the lines of '2% more than me'. How is this helping?
The Government have a done a brilliant job of dividing us. Hatred towards those who get Universal Credit 'why should I work?'; People being jealous of PIP claimants. Honestly, it's appalling

PinkArt · 19/12/2022 17:14

@whumpthereitis Being offended is 'a me problem' but isn't the world a bit nicer for everyone if we try to avoid stuff that's likely to offend people? Obviously it's not always avoidable but things like saying you're 'not rich' when you're in the top 5% of earners isn't going to make anyone eanring considerably less feel great. As I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about money, regardless of income, but just a bit of acknowledgement about where you sit on the spectrum could go a long way.

The nature of my industry means that I started earning at below the tax threshold and am probably now closer to £90k. I would never talk about feeling the pinch or how badly off I am in front of less well off colleagues because it would be a bit of a dick thing to do. Even if someone wasn't offended by the lack of sensitivity, they'd probably think I was a bit of a twat!

DerekFaker · 19/12/2022 17:18

GreenLunchBox · 17/12/2022 19:47

I don't think this is true. 90k isn't a high income by any stretch of the imagination

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🙄

girlmom21 · 19/12/2022 17:18

Mangolist · 19/12/2022 17:09

In a similar vein, there was a thread about someone being upset they had only received a 2% pay rise. So many responses along the lines of '2% more than me'. How is this helping?
The Government have a done a brilliant job of dividing us. Hatred towards those who get Universal Credit 'why should I work?'; People being jealous of PIP claimants. Honestly, it's appalling

This is true. Basically anyone who has something someone else doesn't have warrants nastiness these days.