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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think this is (yet another) bad day for women?

303 replies

Livingtothefull · 16/12/2022 18:16

On the same day that the male perpetrator is jailed for life for the particularly brutal murder of Megan Newborough, the victims of yet another murder in Kettering are named - a nurse and her two young children. A 52-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder.

AIBU to be saddened, sickened and angered by this? Will it ever end, this catalogue of male violence against women and children?

OP posts:
TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 10:50

Here we go...

The theory that women perpetrate intimate partner violence at roughly similar rates as men has been termed "gender symmetry". The earliest empirical evidence of gender symmetry was presented in the 1975 U.S. National Family Violence Survey carried out by Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles on a nationally representative sample of 2,146 "intact families". The survey found 11.6% of women and 12% of men had experienced some kind of intimate partner violence in the last twelve months, also 4.6% of men and 3.8% of women had experienced "severe" intimate partner violence.

Since 1975, numerous other empirical studies have found evidence of gender symmetry in intimate partner violence. For example, in the United States, the National Comorbidity Study of 1990-1992 found 18.4% of men and 17.4% of women had experienced minor intimate partner violence, and 5.5% of men and 6.5% of women had experienced severe intimate partner violence.[48][49]

In England and Wales, the 1995 "Home Office Research Study 191" found that in the twelve months prior to the survey, 4.2% of both men and woman between the ages of 16 and 59 had been assaulted by an intimate.[50]

The Canadian General Social Survey of 2000 found that from 1994 to 1999, 4% of men and 4% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 22% of men and 28% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 7% of men and 8% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[35]

The 2005 Canadian General Social Survey, looking at the years 1999–2004 found similar data; 4% of men and 3% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 16% of men and 21% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 6% of men and 7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[36]

The 1975 National Family Violence Survey found that 27.7% of intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by men alone, 22.7% by women alone and 49.5% were bidirectional. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, resulting in almost identical data.[52]

The 1985 National Family Violence Survey found 25.9% of IPV cases perpetrated by men alone, 25.5% by women alone, and 48.6% were bidirectional.[53]

A study conducted in 2007 by Daniel J. Whitaker, Tadesse Haileyesus, Monica Swahn, and Linda S. Saltzman, of 11,370 heterosexual U.S. adults aged 18 to 28 found that 24% of all relationships had some violence. Of those relationships, 49.7% of them had reciprocal violence. In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence.

In 1997, Philip W. Cook conducted a study of 55,000 members of the United States Armed Forces, finding bidirectionality in 60-64% of intimate partner violence cases, as reported by both men and women.[55]

The 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health found that 49.7% of intimate partner violence cases were reciprocal and 50.3% were non-reciprocal. When data provided by men only was analyzed, 46.9% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 53.1% as non-reciprocal. When data provided by women only was analyzed, 51.3% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 49.7% as non-reciprocal. The overall data showed 70.7% of non-reciprocal intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by women only (74.9% when reported by men; 67.7% when reported by women) and 29.3% were perpetrated by men only (25.1% when reported by men; 32.3% when reported by women).[56]

The 2006 thirty-two nation International Dating Violence Study "revealed an overwhelming body of evidence that bidirectional violence is the predominant pattern of perpetration; and this ... indicates that the etiology of ipv is mostly parallel for men and women". The survey found for "any physical violence", a rate of 31.2%, of which 68.6% was bidirectional, 9.9% was perpetrated by men only, and 21.4% by women only. For severe assault, a rate of 10.8% was found, of which 54.8% was bidirectional, 15.7% perpetrated by men only, and 29.4% by women only.[57]

In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently. Men were more likely to inflict an injury, and overall, 62% of those injured by a partner were women."[58] By contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice finds that women make up 84% of spouse abuse victims and 86% of victims of abuse by a boyfriend or girlfriend.[59]

From 2010 to 2012, scholars of domestic violence from the U.S., Canada and the U.K. assembled The Partner Abuse State of Knowledge, a research database covering 1700 peer-reviewed studies, the largest of its kind. Among its findings:[63]"

- More women (23%) than men (19.3%) have been assaulted at least once in their lifetime.

- Rates of female-perpetrated violence are higher than male-perpetrated (28.3% vs. 21.6%).

- Male and female IPV are perpetrated from similar motives.

- Studies comparing men and women in the power/control motive have mixed results overall.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#:~:text=The%20theory%20that%20women%20perpetrate,Straus%20and%20Richard%20J.

PurpleButterflyWings · 17/12/2022 10:54

Arguingtomyright · 17/12/2022 09:41

In terms of murder, men are 3x more likely to be murdered than women in general.

Exactly! So why aren’t men up in arms about male-on-male violence?

Why do we stop our daughters going out and not our sons?

But these poor POOR boys/sons who are THREE times more likely to be attacked or murdered than women - if that is even true - are virtually 100 times more likely to be attacked or murdered by OTHER MEN!!! Duh! Hmm Did that not even cross your mind?!!!

WTAF is wrong with some people? @TruckerBarbie's posts are making me feel physically sick. They are obviously a MAN - or a woman who has never EVER had a man harass or stalk or her - or worse, like many women have.

I am sick to fucking DEATH of male entitlement, and men harming and maiming and abusing and MURDERING women and girls when they don't toe the line, and when they reject them, and often when they do NOTHING; they are just.... there. 'You're a woman, you're scum, you're a cunt, you're filth.... I will kill you.' Yep, some men do think this. They MUST do, otherwise, why the fuck are soooooooooo many women and girls being MURDERED by men? And abused by men, and raped by men, and physically attacked by men?

Women are not stupid, mumsnetters are not stupid, we KNOW not all men are the same, and many men would never harm a woman or child. However, whilst it's not all men, but it's nearly ALWAYS MEN. Also, I strongly believe the vast VAST majority of men have a certain amount of misogynism in them, and a certain amount of resentment towards women. Some more than others obviously. Yep, even your husband. fathers, and sons...

Most men have the 'women should be looking after house and home and the children' attitude, and are incensed when a woman is promoted above them at work. PURELY because she's a woman. Some mens resentment for women runs much deeper sadly.... But yes, it's there in most men.

I BEG you all to watch this. It was broadcast last week. Absolutely terrifying, and illustrates beautifully, the entitlement of (SOME) men and what they really think of women.

www.channel4.com/programmes/undercover-sexual-harassment-the-truth

NewToWoo · 17/12/2022 10:56

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 01:59

Sorry, I think it's just an excuse to moan about men for many.

If we say two women a week are murdered and there are about 34m men in the UK, then approx 0.0003% of men are murderers.

A good way to tell if something is bigoted is to substitute a different group. So how about calling Muslims a generally homophobic group based on the fact that when surveyed approx 50% think gay people should be imprisoned?

I'll bet this would be a controversial statement, but how can we say one group are violent when 0.0003% of them kill, but not be able to say another group are homophobic when around 50% espouse homophobic views?

I don't expect a proper answer to that question tbh.

That really isn't a useful comparison at all. You are comparing opinion with action. To have a fair comparison you'd need to ask how many Muslims had beaten up or killed gay people.

Or you'd need to poll men to ask how many think women should be submissive or have domination fantasies. Compare like with like.

0.0003% doesn't include rape, domestic violence, street violence, GBH, assault, robbery, threat, stalking, coercion. Add those to the mix, the percentage grows and you will find that it is largely men who exhibit this behaviour.

PurpleButterflyWings · 17/12/2022 11:00

I should also add that a woman got voted into a certain constituency in the Midlands recently. (There had always been a man there.) My best friend and her husband lives in that constituency. The DH's 'mate' from work, texted him and said 'I see a fucking dirty old slag is running your constituency now. Pity you mate. A massive vaj in charge there....'

Yep some men DO think like this. My friend's husband ignored him, but he should really have said 'shut the fuck you vile sexist fucking cunt.' Sadly men do not call each other out when they display this kind of putrid behaviour. And this is ONE reason it will NEVER STOP.

SafeMove · 17/12/2022 11:01

Why would you want to shut down a conversation about male perpetrated violence? It's such a weird position to have just because your Dad is controlled by your Mum. Coercive control is a seperate issue to violence. It has different effects and consequences from a societal, cultural, public health and criminal POV.

I want to end male perpetrated violence because it is more lethal. It causes more extensive and life altering injuries. It costs more from a public health and judiciary POV. Talking a resolvable problem is not bigotry. I don't want my daughter OR my sons on the receiving end of male violence as it is more likely to prove lethal. It's a problem even if the proportion of those conducting it is small as it impacts systemically on the world. Ask any social worker, nurse, MH professional and on and on. To say it isn't a problem and it's just a under/over reporting issue is nonsensical. It is about the impact on any sex and systems and services rather than prevalence. That is the problem. Naming the problem is not bigoted.

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:02

NeedToChangeName · 17/12/2022 10:47

@TruckerBarbie

Many people have unreasonable bosses, but dont shout at them, for fear of losing their job. Of course we can all contain our temper when we really want to

You appear to suggest that it's understandable /acceptable for disagreements between couples to escalate to abuse

We may have to agree to disagree on that

I'm far from suggesting that.

There are many reasons why partners are more likely to seriously argue. Anybody who claims they can't see this is likely being disingenuous. A partner and a boss are miles apart.

You're much more likely to be drunk around your partner.

You're very unlikely to live with your boss.

Feel less inhibited and more likely to broach difficult topics with partner.

More likely to hold back for fear of being sacked/losing income or being 'unprofessional' if arguing with boss.

Let's be honest. Most bosses are only your boss for a few years. It's nothing similar to somebody you may well have pledged to spend your life with/share your finances with.

CountZacular · 17/12/2022 11:04

@TruckerBarbie So you’ve copied pasted from Wikipedia? So what? You said there were inaccurate stats and haven’t actually said what they are.. do you mean some of the ones you’ve just posted or something else?

And again, as has repeatedly been pointed out to you, this is a thread about male violence towards women. Why are you so desperate to derail and use ‘whataboutary’. Go start your own thread about violence towards men by all means but that is completely irrelevant here.

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:07

My friend's husband ignored him, but he should really have said 'shut the fuck you vile sexist fucking cunt.' Sadly men do not call each other out when they display this kind of putrid behaviour. And this is ONE reason it will NEVER STOP.

Read the current thread in AIBU about the embarrassing drunk friend who rubs her breasts and talks to men about her boob job.

Loads of posters saying 'stay out of it, it's none of you're business.'

Now imagine the OP was a bloke talking about how his friend always tells women about his penis extension whilst rubbing his crotch....

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:09

I actually care a lot about women's issues. But no less about men.

I'm aware that I probably look biased but that's only a reflection of the modus operandi on here. There's a big double standard around men.

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:13

So you’ve copied pasted from Wikipedia? So what?

And here comes the denial/dismissiveness...

All studies are referenced and linked within the page. Many are government studies and others feature thousands of respondents.

OlympicProcrastinator · 17/12/2022 11:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FuckabethFuckor · 17/12/2022 11:15

I think a lot of it is about how we learn to process anger. Most people aren’t taught to do it well, if at all.

Men with unprocessed anger tend (statistically speaking) to lash out and hurt other people; other men or women usually.

Women with unprocessed anger tend to hurt themselves or avatars of themselves, such as their children.

Neither of these ‘routes’ are in any way desirable. But anger is also a natural human emotion and should not be suppressed. It needs a positive, healthy outlet.

Until we tackle anger processing we’re not going to tackle male violence in any significant way.

Prettybutdumb · 17/12/2022 11:15

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:07

My friend's husband ignored him, but he should really have said 'shut the fuck you vile sexist fucking cunt.' Sadly men do not call each other out when they display this kind of putrid behaviour. And this is ONE reason it will NEVER STOP.

Read the current thread in AIBU about the embarrassing drunk friend who rubs her breasts and talks to men about her boob job.

Loads of posters saying 'stay out of it, it's none of you're business.'

Now imagine the OP was a bloke talking about how his friend always tells women about his penis extension whilst rubbing his crotch....

She was touching her breasts?? Oh, no. Did someone get injured? Was emergency therapy required?

We had men wanking in bushes whilst watching children every single morning on our way to high school. It was frequent enough that it became normal for us teens.

Please.

VinoDino · 17/12/2022 11:16

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:09

I actually care a lot about women's issues. But no less about men.

I'm aware that I probably look biased but that's only a reflection of the modus operandi on here. There's a big double standard around men.

It's a predominantly women's website.

I can't decide if you are being deliberately goady or just plain lacking in intellect.

Either is quite sad.

CountZacular · 17/12/2022 11:17

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:13

So you’ve copied pasted from Wikipedia? So what?

And here comes the denial/dismissiveness...

All studies are referenced and linked within the page. Many are government studies and others feature thousands of respondents.

It’s not denial or dismissiveness. I am asking what the relevance is to male violence towards women. What is the link? You presented it so what is your reasoning for it on this particular thread?

And if it is just pure whataboutary then go and start a new thread. Lots of posters will be happy to engage with that but this is not the place for it unless you can explain what the relevance is other than ‘won’t someone think of the men’.

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2022 11:17

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:09

I actually care a lot about women's issues. But no less about men.

I'm aware that I probably look biased but that's only a reflection of the modus operandi on here. There's a big double standard around men.

What are you doing about ‘men’s issues’?

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:18

Prettybutdumb · 17/12/2022 11:15

She was touching her breasts?? Oh, no. Did someone get injured? Was emergency therapy required?

We had men wanking in bushes whilst watching children every single morning on our way to high school. It was frequent enough that it became normal for us teens.

Please.

So sexual harassment only counts when it's against women. Okaaay.

And you wonder why men don't take feminists seriously.

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2022 11:19

Have you commented on that thread @TruckerBarbie ? What was your advice to the OP?

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:19

But these poor POOR boys/sons who are THREE times more likely to be attacked or murdered than women - if that is even true

Real empathy there. 😉

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:20

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2022 11:19

Have you commented on that thread @TruckerBarbie ? What was your advice to the OP?

I agreed with the poster who made the comparison to a man talking about his penis extension.

Prettybutdumb · 17/12/2022 11:21

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:18

So sexual harassment only counts when it's against women. Okaaay.

And you wonder why men don't take feminists seriously.

If it’s not sexual harassment when a man touches his breasts, then it’s not sexual harassment when we do it. Please don’t compare your crotch with our chests.

OlympicProcrastinator · 17/12/2022 11:23

All studies are referenced and linked within the page. Many are government studies and others feature thousands of respondents

And by the way, that page referring to those few studies has been done to death and weaponised by the relevant MRA groups (I won’t post their names for those that haven’t been pulled down the rabbit hole) and by posting that it just demonstrates how little you’ve read around the subject. I could post an entire Harvard referenced bibliography with counter points to that but again, it’s a blatant attempt to derail a thread where women want to discuss the impact of male violence against us as a sex class.

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2022 11:23

TruckerBarbie · 17/12/2022 11:20

I agreed with the poster who made the comparison to a man talking about his penis extension.

So just the same as you did on this thread? No advice, just calling people hypocrites? Why?

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2022 11:24

Also @TruckerBarbie what are you doing about men’s issues? And how can women get men onside?

OlympicProcrastinator · 17/12/2022 11:27

And you wonder why men don't take feminists seriously

Women talking about women’s issues doesn’t automatically make us ‘feminists’. We can just be women talking you know.

No. No we are not sitting here pondering ‘why don’t men take us seriously’

How self absorbed to suggest our thought process focuses on mens opinions of our conversation.