It’s a dog one. Who was being unreasonable?

[Ohhelpicantthinkofaname]

So, I own a friendly, if slightly mad medium sized dog.

today we were out on a walk and was heading back up a footpath with a stream to the side. Most people have their dogs off the lead along this path, it’s nothing unusual.

so I’m walking up the path and my dog is a little way ahead. A child approx 20+ meters away see my dog, screams and runs back to his mum. The child is probably 7-9 years old. I call my dog back so she’s near me.

A man who was with them and I think a friend rather than the child’s father comes up to me and says “that child is scared of dogs”. I reply “ok, well my dog likes kids, but I’ll take her over here” and walked over to where the stream was a threw her ball in so she would just play and ignore them as they walked by.

the man gave me the filthiest look and mutter some choice things about me under his breath.

to my mind it’s better for a child with a fear of dogs to see a dog at a safe distance minding its own business, rather than me panicking and rushing to put it back on the lead, making it seem like there really is something to fear. My dog has good recall and I trusted her not to cause an issue. Also at that child’s age I would have thought some exposure to dogs to try and address what is clearly quite a serious fear would be a good thing, rather than feeding into it by trying to ensure he doesn’t encounter any dogs.

so was I unreasonable for not putting my dog straight back on the lead, and the man was justified for his glaring and muttered insults. Or is it fine to keep her off the lead, occupied and at a safe distance?

The kid passed by without incident btw. If I though my dogs would have actually done anything she would have been on the lead.

Ok, I’m going to assume that you’re just having a really bad day. I haven’t been unpleasant at all, and I don’t even really think we’re disagreeing all that much. I quite clearly don’t think leads are the solution to everything and I also don’t think all dogs or dog owners need to use them to the same extent (or at all). I just think leads, on balance, are probably more useful than muzzles, and I found the part of your post in which you talked about muzzles as though they’d solve more problems than leads a bit odd. Indeed, I thought it rather missed the point (made by many of the posters about why they object to dogs being off leads) that dogs don’t need to be bitey or dangerous in any real sense to be frightening to children and a nuisance generally. That was the only reason I picked up on your post. Sorry you’re so bent out of shape about it!

@Justdontbejudgy I don't think anybody had claimed that owners should allow dogs to jump on/bite you. in fact I stated in my post that obviously owners have a responsibility to ensure that nobody is harmed by their dog. But that s irrelevant in the situation described by OP as the dog was not interfering with the child. So you statement that people shouldnt be harrassed/hurt by dogs doesn't translate to saying dogs should be on leads. That's like saying if I feel intimated by large groups of teenagers hanging out in the park they shouldn't be there. They don't have a responsibility to ensure i dont feel intimidated. They do have a responsibility not to harass me.

Maybe read my other posts where I mentioned I was bitten while out for a run in a public space by a dog off the lead, got the fright of my life.

Or the time on a shared path for walkers and bikes a dog off the lead ran in front of my bike, almost getting seriously injured.

Or the time another dog off the lead came into the play park while I and another mum were sitting on a picnic mat with 6 month old babies and it came right on over on to the mat and I had to move my baby...I have many many more.

When dog is out of control and you are carrying a baby in sling, it's not cute, it is frightening, actually.

You also cannot say with 100% certainty that your dog will never jump or bite.

Ive also said I like dogs (grew up always having one) and would own one if my circumstances were differnet. I'd also keep it on a lead in a shared space where other people are present. So not a dog hater either.

Nope, just think dogs should be kept out of my way by being controlled in public places. A lead allows for this.

Why should a sociable dog, who has no
interest in people passing be kept on a lead? Help me out here. I walk miles per day and meet many dogs. Very rarely a dog will approach. I keep walking and dog quickly loses interest.

What do you think OP did wrong in this scenario? Dog was walking, child screamed. Op diverted dog off the footpath until scared child passed. Nobody was harmed - or even sniffed at. What exactly are you blaming OP for?

I find it very odd how many people seem annoyed that OP didn’t make sure the dog was closer to the walkers, as putting the dog on a lead would do exactly that.

Can the lead people please explain why they want dogs to be moved closer to people? How odd that people with a fear of dogs want to actively be closer to them.

I think OP’s mistake was making a remark, that could be taken as sarcastic, to the child’s parents. It was unkind and uncalled for.

I have a dog and love dogs but the remarks on this thread demonstrate the entitled behaviour I encounter on dog walks. Many people with dogs - particularly those purchased in lockdown - have absolutely no idea how to to train a dog and seem completely devoid of commonsense! I’ve been bitten, jumped up and told to “fuck off” when I asked a man very politely if he could call his dog away from us - it was jumping all over my dog. I’ve had men lean in my face and scream just because I objected politely to their dogs jumping all over me. It’s unacceptable. I walk my dog off lead - she’s v well behaved and has excellent recall - but I have absolutely no difficulty putting her on a lead to be considerate to a child.

Yes a phobia of dogs is a terrible thing for a child but forcing a child (or anyone) to confront a phobia is not beneficial and is very likely to make the phobia worse. I used to work in a Cognitive Behaviour Therapy unit and forcing confrontation is demonstrably proven to make symptoms worse.

I totally agree that it's the owner's responsibility to train their dog properly. 100%. You get the dog, you take that on. I've spent hours and hours at classes and doing my homework so my dog will stop to whistle, turn, recall etc. That's MY job to to to keep him and others safe. There's too many idiot owners out there.

Does that mean we need to go full "all dogs need muzzling and on lead". No. The irony of justdontbejudgy and their username hasn't escaped me.

I got mugged by a teenager once. All teenagers must therefore not be allowed out after dark. Actually, I've also been sworn at by them, had chairs thrown at me, and been threatened. So yeah, teens need BANNING from public space.

Actually, I'm a teacher. And I understand that 99% of the kids I teach are delightful. So I keep some perspective.

Which is what's required.

You’ve lost all perspective, I’d consider some kind of help, because your demands are never going to be met, no matter how many times you say they should be kept on a lead.

My dog wouldn't come near you. No lead required.

In the urban areas I walk in including parks, small woods my dog is on a lead. It’s a long lead. It’s to make sure that other people aren’t bothered by my dog. What I do find is other dog owners let their dogs off the lead and these dogs bother my dog. They always come over and my walk is stopped to manage the situation. The off lead dog owners aren’t keeping a look out. I walk with a walking pole now after some dangerous situations. Kids running ahead like to rush over to pet my dog. I have to tell them to go back to their group and not to run up to my dog. He’s very good with all people but because he has health issues he gets surprised by unknown kids. He doesn’t like other dogs so doesn’t want to engage with them. I’m often calling out is there a dog owner nearby. It’s about responsibility.

That wouldn't be under control.

That also isn't remotely what happened, because the OP's dog was under control, recalled without approaching and was sent off in another direction followed by the OP and then engaged in some other activity.

In the history of MN dog threads, I do not think anyone ever has said dogs approaching people uninvited and jumping up on them is 'fine'.

Funnily enough, do you know who else doesn't want to be mugged by someone elses dog, pestered by them, jumped on, etc etc?

Other dog owners!

@Justdontbejudgy

Does your strategy ever work? To just keep saying the same things thing over and over again, until everyone suddenly changes their views to agree with yours?

No? So maybe time to give it up now, it's getting really tedious.

The law used to say that slavery was legal, wife-beating: legal; smoking in public indoor spaces: legal. Just because the law hasn’t caught up to the fact that dogs are a menace for a great many of us, doesn’t mean that’s how we as a society decide what’s unreasonable. All the above changed because enough people fought for it to change.

Yes!

It's not a strategy, just my views. I love how everyone has just brushed over my baby being approached by a dog in a play park or me being bitten, because they want to have their doggie woggies off the lead. That is what is tedious here

The fact that their dog "is ok" or "well controlled " and I should some how adjust my views to accept an animal invading my space in a public space.

Nope. On a lead in a shared space. Glad to see some recent posters also agree.

Dogs are a menace, that's it! Not sure we need legislation perhaps just less arrogance and bit more acknowledgement of others' circumstances.
It breaks my heart as I loved my dogs growing up. I feel like such a grumpy old woman sometimes, but they need to be controlled in shared spaces. This view has somehow made me tedious and unreasonable!

I don’t think you did anything wrong. But as the mother of a child who had a fear of dogs until she was 11ish because of out of control dogs who attacked her when she was small, exacerbated by poorly controlled enthusiastic dogs who liked children when she already had “the fear”, I sympathize with the father.

Exposure therapy is helpful. But there are so many abysmally bad dog owners that you can’t really do that in public with dogs you don’t know. Because you know your dog has good recall etc. but the child and the father don’t so they will still see it as a potentially dangerous situation. And even though you did nothing wrong ad your dog was under control, he’s still going to have a child who is upset and may doesn’t want to walk down that path again for a while. Which is a total pain the arse.

Sorry. if your child is so fearful of dogs that seeing an under control dog, as per the situation the OP describes, being called back and taken elsewhere causes such fear that the kid doesn't want to go to that location again... then they weren't ready to go there in the first place and the parent should have parented properly, and taken them to a place where the risk of simply SEEING a dog off lead was much lower.

Yes, dog owners should have dogs under control and no, that doesn't mean allowing dogs to jump on people, get in their personal space, bark at folk, etc etc.

But if you are responsible for someone who has a phobia and isn't able to make their own decisions yet about how to deal with it, that means YOU deal with it, and avoidance of environments you can't control is a huge part of that.

(And if your answer is 'why should I' or 'then how will I fix my childs fear' you need to go and do a bit more research on how to modify behaviour and alter emotional responses, it isn't by chucking someone in the deep end, nor is it by expecting everyone ELSE to bend over backwards and go out of their way for you.)

However as you know if you read the OP's posts, the child made no indication that they were too scared to go down that path again, they passed where the dog and owner had been, the distance was sufficient and everyone lived happily ever after. The OP was asking if they were BU in THIS situation, not in your situation or some imaginary made up situation.

yeah I’m very clear that I don’t have a phobia of dogs but a rational fear grounded in experiences and the fact a lot of people are bitten by dogs each year . Some selfish entitled neighbour in my flat building let her dog come charging at me recently, it leapt on me and ended up scratching me. I was scared at the time but then furious. She didn’t even apologise. This exacerbated and reinforced my ( legitimate) fear of dogs. They can and do hurt you!

OP, I understand your dog is well trained but I think the man may have witnessed too many incidents where a dog has scratched, bit or jumped on his daughter after an owner like you has claimed they won’t and he has to deal with her upset afterwards, so perhaps that’s why he seemed a bit rude!

Same. I’ve started avoiding hotels which are pet friendly. I wish all cafes/restaurant would advertise clearly if they’re pet friendly or not so I know which to avoid. I think I seen a dog in my local library recently which is just bizarre.

It’s completely fine to walk your dog off a leash as long as it is well trained and has good recall. OP didn’t do anything wrong.
If the child is so scared of dogs, why was she taken to a place where dogs are commonly let off the leash. It’s difficult to go outside in a lot of places, where I stay for one, without encountering any dogs. Having a fear of them must be incredibly debilitating as they’re a very common occurrence.

Correct they do need to be controlled in shared spaces. And my off lead dog is.

YANU. But this is MN. And if a dog even sneezes in the direction of a child it needs to be put down and the owner thrown in front of a jury made up entirely of mothers whose precious darlings are traumatised because a dog once looked at them funny in the park 5 years ago.