Page 15 | Be honest: Do you think single and childfree people are less than?

Sonervousimgonnathrowup · 2022-11-29T10:13:59+00:00

I am that person. It suits me. But fucking hell do I get comments, questions and often it seems like I’m treated like a second-class citizen. Do people still today look down on single / childfree people?

LynLynette · 30/11/2022 10:20

Mothers get lots of attention for reproducing, gender reveals, baby showers, celebrations at birth. Showered with gifts at each event. And yes it’s nice to be a part of those celebrations but just don’t forget your childfree friend’s birthday when it comes around (and how generous they were at your celebrations

I didn’t have any of those things. My sister got married a few days before my due date and everyone was so wrapped up in that I barely got a look in. She also had her wedding on my birthday so that pretty much got bypassed that year as well. It’s only some people that do all that kind of stuff, not everyone does.
Plus if you only see the party, gifts and stuff it looks great but what I found was lots of people were very nice to me - even complete strangers - offering me a seat on bus, asking me when I was due, telling me I was glowing, getting me a cup of tea etc, but other people (including nurses in the hospital) were horrible, making out like I was being precious if I ever said I was tired, telling me to get on with it, a few men I knew who used to be really nice to me started blanking me, people started rumours about me.
Once these men that were working on the grounds outside my apartment building left a load of equipment on the path, I shouted over to them to ask if they could move it, they shouted back just step over it, I said I’m nearly 9 months pregnant and one them shouted What do you want a fucking medal?
Also, once you have the baby (for me anyway) the attention immediately switches to them, people don’t give a shit how you are and instead of getting offered a cup of tea, you end up making it for everyone else while they pass the baby round.
Everybody expected me to be out of bed, dressed and ready to bounce back and go out to meet them for coffee right away and when I said I was sore or tired or whatever it was all eye rolls and sneers.
I don’t think anyone in my family has actually listened to a word I’ve said since dd was born 3 years ago. It’s like I’m a shadow. I hate being the centre of attention normally and even I find it demoralising.
And people are only really interested when babies are newborns. Lots of family members lose interest after that or once someone else has a baby in the family. Then you’re just another slightly haggard mother with a screaming teething baby getting dirty looks in the doctors office and unsolicited advice on how to settle them down coming from every direction.
Some women may get a lot of positive attention for reproducing, I didn’t find it that way and it’s certainly balanced out with negatives.

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 11:02

GrannyWeatherwaxsHatpin · 29/11/2022 10:22

Nope. I'm single and childfree (by choice) and my life isn't less than that of others, it's just different.

Can we play the Childfree Thread drinking game?

Sips for anyone who says "Well, yes I do because [insert tedious reason here]";
Gulps for "You don't know love until you've had a child; and
Drink everything in the house for "Why are childfree people on MUMSnet?"

Don't forget that child free people can never feel tiredness either. We can't feel love or tiredness, we are essentially robots

Spottedslug · 30/11/2022 11:11

Passthecheeseboard · 30/11/2022 00:57

Yes definitely, society does view women as less worth if they are not mothers or don’t have the potential to be a mother.

The discrimination is everywhere but overt, it can be the look of judgment you get when someone asks if you have children and you say no. It can be nosey and presumptuous follow up questions ‘do you want children?’ ‘When are you going to have children then?’.

It can be the assumption that your spare time is less valuable if you’re not parenting a child, expectation to do overtime at work, work late (while mothers with children can leave early, a woman at my work usually leaves 3 hours before the end of the shift, leaving the rest of the team short staffed at the busiest time due to ‘child care issues’ ). It can be the pressure to work Christmas because you don’t have children (presuming I don’t have children so obviously I don’t want to spend time with my family during Christmas), it can be not being able to take annual leave in the school holiday’s because that’s the time parents should take priority. I can think of many more examples. I’m guessing everyone here saying this doesn’t happen are all mothers and generally have no idea how it feels on the other side of the fence…

Mothers get lots of attention for reproducing, gender reveals, baby showers, celebrations at birth. Showered with gifts at each event. And yes it’s nice to be a part of those celebrations but just don’t forget your childfree friend’s birthday when it comes around (and how generous they were at your celebrations) …

Women who are childfree are definitely treated as less worthy, and are frequently discriminated against in both professional and social situations. I actually think it’s quite a sexist attitude… You don’t see men without children being treated differently or judged for being childfree.

Yup. 100%. not to mention the differences in employers attitudes when taking maternity leave as opposed to asking for a sabbatical. The one and only time I asked for an unpaid sabbatical I was almost laughed out of the office for the audacity of my request - how very dare I to think I could leave the business for a year's holiday and then waltz back in!!! This, after years of witnessing my colleagues go off on maternity leave numerous times! Some timed it so they'd come back, do a few months as required before calculating when they could go off again on maternity! It's absurd and unless you're the other side of the fence, you'll never see how unfair and unjust the system can be to childfree folk.

123becauseicouldntthinkofone · 30/11/2022 11:19

Not 2nd class....i for one am envious :)

GloomyDarkness · 30/11/2022 11:32

Mothers get lots of attention for reproducing, gender reveals, baby showers, celebrations at birth. Showered with gifts at each event. And yes it’s nice to be a part of those celebrations but just don’t forget your childfree friend’s birthday when it comes around (and how generous they were at your celebrations

I think that's more fantasy than most women's experiences - plus pg and screwed and mummy track don't appear to exist on this thread when in RL they are sadly very real issues.

I think that's part of the problem- women with children imaging they'd have take over the world world all the extra time and money they'd have had - when in reality they'd probably have slight more expensive house and few more meals out and possible odd extra holiday.

I think it's only a good thing if people really think about if they actually want children - as it's not for everyone - but pregnancy rewires the brain so clearly perceptions will alter so before and after comparisons will be bloody hard.

With an aging population - I do wonder if employers are going to be forced to be more flexible with other caring responsibilities for older relatives as well- I know Dmum ended up giving up work before she ideally wanted as medical appointments for my older relatives then her and Dad as caring tool a toll on their health was just to much to juggle with an inflexible employer.

Namechange563 · 30/11/2022 11:36

ExhaustedFlamingo · 29/11/2022 11:55

I have no interest in the reproductive choices of other women. I've known women in every category you can imagine - and even I don't fall neatly into the "fell in love, got married and had children" box. Life often doesn't go to plan and there are many paths a person can take. None are more righteous than another.

However, if you're asking me whether being a parent changes you in ways that you can't comprehend before you had kids, then yes. I know childless people can pissy about hearing it being said, but as we're discussing the subject on this thread there's no point being less than honest.

Having children brings a dimension to your life that just can't be experienced in any other way. I've known a few woman in their 50s/60s/70s who are childless and they all have a unique selfishness, despite being very lovely people. When you have kids you have to put someone else first, no matter how annoying that might be at times. It changes you as a person and I think there are no other life experiences which are comparable. And yes, that old trope, but there's absolutely no love which comes even close to the love you have for your child. There are times when I almost regret having children because I'm now emotionally vulnerable in a way that I never was before. People say it's like a little piece of your heart is out there walking around, and that's exactly how it is. I had this conversation the other day, and a group of mums were all saying they felt the same.

But of course there is a flip side too. As a childless person you'll probably have opportunities that I'll never have. I could spend all day listing them. So you might be more rounded in other ways. You'll undoubtedly have the chance for many more exciting, fulfilling experiences that I can't even begin to comprehend.

The choices we make and the experiences we have in our life shapes who we are. And that includes having children too. It's silly to pretend that having children doesn't change you enormously, and alter your view of the world in a way that's impossible to understand unless you have kids yourself. But that doesn't make it the only valid choice - there are increasingly more young women who are deciding that their future doesn't involve motherhood, and no one should have to explain that to anyone else.

It changes some parents. Not all. There's some pretty terrible parents out there.

Sunnysideup999 · 30/11/2022 11:37

No.
No one is less than or more than anyone else on this planet

KimberleyClark · 30/11/2022 11:37

I certainly found when caring for my mother who had dementia that needing to take time off to take her to appointments and attend to emergencies was seen as a nuisance in a way it wouldn’t have been had it been my child. Childless friends have found the same.

EBearhug · 30/11/2022 11:40

not to mention the differences in employers attitudes when taking maternity leave as opposed to asking for a sabbatical. The one and only time I asked for an unpaid sabbatical I was almost laughed out of the office for the audacity of my request - how very dare I to think I could leave the business for a year's holiday and then waltz back in!!!

I did take a three month sabbatical in the late '90s, and when I came back, HR assumed I'd been on maternity (clearly without looking at my files.)

Funnily enough someone suggested to me yesterday I should think about a sabbatical, but taking time off like that in my 50s, I don't know. But I do respect that person's opinions, do I'm going to mull it over, at least.

Passthecheeseboard · 30/11/2022 12:05

I also really hate the assumption that because your childfree that must mean you have loads of extra cash and be living a lavish lifestyle with 20 holidays a year and meals out every day of the week… I’m childfree, not a millionaire 🤨

Like me and DH are struggling to survive like everyone else. We are just about keeping on top of our mortgage and bills and if we are lucky have one holiday a year or a couple of weekends away if not a big holiday (not looking likely this year though )… we have cut back on meals out, maybe we go out for dinner once every couple of months if our finances allow at the time. We live sensibly and within our means…

Also it’s quite insensitive to say to a childfree person that you envy their lifestyle ‘your so lucky etc … If you are talking to a woman who is going through the grief of infertility miscarriages it’s not a good thing to say…

MissCrowley · 30/11/2022 12:07

I have two kids and I'd envy your freedom and constantly ask what you were doing with all your free time and live vicariously through you.
Would I judge? Absolutely bloody not!

ClangingBell · 30/11/2022 12:08

I’m surprised this is a thing any more, but childless women would know better than me whether it’s an issue. I’d assumed now so many women choose different paths that there was less judgement. I’m in my 40s and of six close friends from college only 3 have kids. I was the only one still married with kids and now I’m a widow, so that’s none of us in a conventional married with kids set up. I think we seem fairly standard as a friends group, but actually other widows have mentioned how they felt like they were forced out of their ‘couples with children’ friendship groups and I’ve never had one of those!

Do childless women feel this same judgement from other women the same age?

rudolphrainbownose · 30/11/2022 12:17

Spottedslug · 30/11/2022 11:11

Yup. 100%. not to mention the differences in employers attitudes when taking maternity leave as opposed to asking for a sabbatical. The one and only time I asked for an unpaid sabbatical I was almost laughed out of the office for the audacity of my request - how very dare I to think I could leave the business for a year's holiday and then waltz back in!!! This, after years of witnessing my colleagues go off on maternity leave numerous times! Some timed it so they'd come back, do a few months as required before calculating when they could go off again on maternity! It's absurd and unless you're the other side of the fence, you'll never see how unfair and unjust the system can be to childfree folk.

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Tbf, your employer was probably just as irritated by constant maternity leave , but is legally not allowed to refuse them, wheras they can a sabbatical.

I don't think your employer valued you less than your colleagues going on maternity leave, they're just legally not allowed to refuse a maternity leave. I'm sure if they could, many would.

Terracottage · 30/11/2022 12:23

I used to when I was young, before I experienced motherhood and bad relationships of my own. Now I'm single through choice, and would never judge anyone for not making the all consuming choice to become a mother in a society which is patriarchal enough that doing so can be the end of your career or at least a massive set back for it, and where women are the default parent and often end up the single parent as well. With the knowledge I've gained through bitter experiences, I don't know if I would make the same choices myself if I were able to live it over again. I love my kids, but their disabilities and neurodivergent conditions make motherhood completely all consuming. I would never judge anyone for not choosing to be a parent. Or for being single.

Ted27 · 30/11/2022 12:27

@MissCrowley

to be honest, if you constantly asked me what I did with all my free time I’d probably get very very annoyed with you.
I did adopt a child, much later than my friends had their birth children, What did I do with my masses of free time ? I worked, cleaned, shopped, cooked my meals - just like everyone else - yes I had a social life but was far from being out every night or swanning off on holidays

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 12:48

EmmaAgain22 · 29/11/2022 11:33

I have never understood "used to be childfree". If you planned to have children, you were not childfree.

I plan on having kids one day, but I don't currently have any so.. I am child free.. maybe I won't be able to have kids for whatever reason.. who knows. Why would planning to have kids not make you child free?

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 12:49

antelopevalley · 29/11/2022 11:35

@EmmaAgain22 I totally agree. If we used that definition everyone is childfree. No one is born with children.
I think childfree kicks in as an external label when it is clear to everyone you are not ever going to have children.

So people who want kids but can't have them can only call themselves childless but people who don't want kids get to call themselves child free?

Spottedslug · 30/11/2022 12:53

@rudolphrainbownose

Yes absolutely, some employers would be irked by women taking maternity leave but obviously and rightfully so, can do f all about it. However, the problem is with the system itself, that's skewed to often only consider a parents needs and disregard those of us who've chosen a different path. It genuinely does create bad feeling when umpteen times you get the short end of the stick when asking for allowances ( such as sabbatical or holiday leave in school holidays etc) because, well you're not a parent and they have priority, so suck it up and stop moaning! at one job everyone's hours got cut due to reduced funding but when the company got a new contract, guess who got their hours back first - those with children!! Because it was decided they needed the money more! Despite the fact I'm talking about 2 parent households here vs those with only 1 household income and no one to share the financial load. If you dared to question this, wow were you considered the pariah - how selfish to have your own needs and not consider the poor children !

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 12:54

Speedweed · 29/11/2022 11:47

I think the problem is that we all unconsciously assume that our friends want the same things as us (because we have so much in common otherwise - they must do, right?!!). And these things (partners, children, big house, whatever) are so 'normal', so 'easy' that it's hard to understand why someone wouldn't want that - and therefore as they haven't got what they wanted (we assume), it suddenly becomes 'oh, poor X', which is where the second class citizen feeling arises. You're not imagining it, it's definitely real.

And this whole process for most people is unconscious- they don't even realise they're doing it. It takes a big leap to understand our choices are not our friend's choices.

Yeah agree with this completely, my sister is 33 and has no interest in having a relationship or kids (she never has), a food friend of mine who knows my sister (not well but knows her through me) asked me a while ago how my sister was and then said 'I feel so bad for her' .. I could only say... why?? It's because my friend perceived her as being lonely because that's how she would feel in my sisters situation, she couldn't wrap her head around it when I explained to her (which Iv done on multiple occasions) that my sister doesn't want any of that stuff. And of course she says the usual 'how does she know she doesn't want a relationship if she's never had one' which I'm sorry but is just stupid

Heartonmysleevee · 30/11/2022 12:55

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 12:48

I plan on having kids one day, but I don't currently have any so.. I am child free.. maybe I won't be able to have kids for whatever reason.. who knows. Why would planning to have kids not make you child free?

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Its not about that. You need to use the correct term you either have children or you don't you can't go around lying and misleading people. Imagine the look on people's faces... if you were to say I'm a Mother but you have never even given birth. Most bizarre 😳

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 13:02

YellowTreeHouse · 29/11/2022 11:58

I don’t look down on them, no. But I do feel sorry for them and believe they’re only happy because they don’t know what they’re missing.

Which of course they’ll deny… because they don’t know what they’re missing.

So if, for example, someone really wants kids but can't have them for whatever reason, what do you propose they do? Wallow in self pity and let it ruin their lives? Or make the most of their situation and enjoy their lives and find happiness in other ways?

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 13:05

@Heartonmysleevee what on Earth are you talking about, if you don't have children then the right term is 'child free' .. the definition of child free is 'not having any children'

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 13:06

@Heartonmysleevee also have you ever heard of adoptive mothers? Women who adopt are also mothers .. your post is bizarre

MarshaBradyo · 30/11/2022 13:08

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 13:06

@Heartonmysleevee also have you ever heard of adoptive mothers? Women who adopt are also mothers .. your post is bizarre

I agree for both your posts

Heartonmysleevee · 30/11/2022 13:19

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 13:05

@Heartonmysleevee what on Earth are you talking about, if you don't have children then the right term is 'child free' .. the definition of child free is 'not having any children'

Yes I know that's what I was saying too. Yes agree with you about adoptive mothers. I'm not sure why you are being hostile because you would still fall in the camp of mother... so need for me to start listing adoptive mother. OK?

Unless you go around calling yourself adoptive mother rather than mother.