Be honest: Do you think single and childfree people are less than?

[Sonervousimgonnathrowup]

I am that person.
It suits me.
But fucking hell do I get comments, questions and often it seems like I’m treated like a second-class citizen.

Do people still today look down on single / childfree people?

@Lookout3

in my job you don’t get paid overtime and their are restrictions on second jobs.
My toughest years financially were those before I adopted my son.

Many single people struggle financially

@Gang no its not patronising. I don't agree with OP. Your going on as if mums can't relate to child free life. The mothers will tell you as they have experienced BOTH. To be fair you don't know what motherhood entails either obviously people tell you but it's a lot different once you become a mum yourself

Anyway my personal experience is I had more money BEFORE I had DS. That's just common sense and probably the case for most parents though.

No i dont know what motherhood is like, but you also dont know what childfree life is like at this stage. I dont know the different pressures that women becoming grandmothers and societies expectations now about childcare etc, I also dont know what childfree pensioners experience. Because im not there yet

Its just a falsehood to think that people who were childfree for a period, know what its like for people who are lifelong childless, because the experience at 20 is different to it at 60. Its like saying because you went on holiday for a period in you 20's that you know what its like to live in that country full time.

@Lookout3 Mostwill has more money before having a child. But my poorest years were being single and working on minimum wage. I would have had more money with a child as I would have been entitled to benefits.

It is obvious that being single and childfree is different at 30 than it is at 50 years old.

I agree that lots of people have more money before they have children but finances arent solely based on children.
Children are just one of the factors. Caring responsiblities, financial obligations, careers and health have just as much impact.
It might be true for some people, or not true for others. You cant assume that all childfree people must be rolling in it, just like you cant that all mothers must be poor.

It's not 'just common sense'.

Plus the fact that two people can have identical lives yet have wildly different perceptions of, and feelings towards, it. A person is only really qualified to compare, and speak on, their own.

Really good point that this is probably hurtful to the people with kids also

God no...I think they're bloody clever.

you need to mix with different people who's lives don't revolve around children and partners.

Not necessarily, I have a long term health condition.

Also lol at the ol’ trope that if you don’t have kids you can just work 24/7.

So like lots of things, it can be tricky to navigate as a single person. There is an assumption that people have inbuilt care around them (obviously not suggesting that children should automatically be carers). There are some procedures for example that require people to have someone with them for 24 hours after for example, and that the assumption is this is family. There arent appropriate services to keep people either in hospital or to provide adhoc care so people are denied procedures. Hospitals might not let people leave alone via taxi etc

The bit i was reading was about adhoc care not being as available, for example of the above where there are no carer agencies able to provide, but that also random visits like support to go to opticians, access far away appointments or even a life beyond medical care are very hard to get carers for. Hospitals rely on families etc to provide collatarol (but partners can do this), but often theres a level of a bit of a physicality involved eg. bringing in clothes, or money and toiletries (suprising amount of hospitals dont provide much food choice, limited drinks, or any toiletries) which is hard for older partners. Carehomes ask family to sort clothes, toiletries etc. A bit like in maternity wards where partners have to be present to bring babies to mums who have had a c-section, there is very high levels on relying that family will sort things

All health care relies a lot on advocacy and there are worries that they listen better to elequant children then partners who also look older, theres also a lot of chasing involved and admin. I know my neighbour had dementia and no family, and there was no way she would have made it to appointments as they would send her a letter and expect her to read it, remember, book a taxi and turn up!

Anecdotally Ive also read pieces that there feels like a greater divide when your friends have small children but that this improves when your friends are less in the trenches and have older teens etc, however that as friends become grandparents that this tends to dominate again.

@Goldenbear

Sorry I didn’t mean a society without children but a society whereby the children were actually wanted.

My brother is childfree by choice and tell family freely. He doesn’t want kids as he says it won’t be fair on them as he knows he’s too selfish. He’s got very expensive/time intensive hobbies and a lifestyle/personality that’s not really suited for kids. He says what kind of message would that send to the kid once they work out that they’re not his priority, he’s never around as he’d prefer to be in the Alps than taking them to football and he’s got a type A personality that he’d make them crumble under his expectations. A lot of family can’t wrap their heads around it and after them bleeting on about it he got a vasectomy.

Ive just googled the stat for ‘childfree’ women in the U.K. (post childbearing age) and it’s 18%. In that stat is woman who can’t bare children, those who wanted children but never got the opportunity and those who actually made the decision that they didn’t want to have children.

My statement of childfree by choice would be better for society was meant to be referring to adults who decide to have kids just because instead of actually wanting to be a parent. How many times do we hear ‘I want a baby/he wants his own kids’ instead of ‘I really want to be a parent’. My local FB feed would slow down with the posters moaning about the anti-social teens and the choir of ‘well there’s nothing for the kids to do around here’.

I cannot wait for the next chapter but that’s because I really love kids.

Not at all. I occasionally feel "less than" due to one of my children belittling/talking down to me etc.

When I worked, I did not do much overtime at all, as I also wanted to have a life outside work. You do not need to have kids to have a life.

@Gang Thank you! Makes for v interesting reading!

I was talking to a woman today, same age as me, similar career, both have partners, but she has a cat and I have a child.

She has lived and worked all over the world. She's currently applying for jobs in the Far East as her partner fancies a change too. She spends her free time doing truly impressive endurance sporting achievements in beautiful places. I spend my 'free' time wiping bums, going to the supermarket and the soft play.
Don't get me wrong, I am very happy and very lucky to have my child, but other woman's life is definitely not less than.

The other child-free women I know all seem to be v high achieving/creative/adventurous too.

gosh imagine if you were just an ‘ordinary’ women with no kids or husband

you know - not rich, no high flying job, few passports stamps, average social life

some of these posts are like an either or : high flying career or parenthood
imagine tne judgement if it were neither “you mean you don’t have a family and you don’t have a personal masseuse??”

This is such an offensive assumption and is one of the very many judgemental opinions us childfree women are having to correct day in day out, that our lives are somehow easier / better than our counterparts.

I don't have children so therefore I haven't got any other responsibilities and can work as many hours as I wish to top up my overflowing coffers and further enhance my life of luxury? Wow, I wish. No consideration given to those of us with huge caring responsibilities, such as elderly parents exhibiting dementia? No consideration to those with long term health conditions who with all the will in the world can't work overtime or can't even work at all?

it might be useful to look outside of your own situation once in a while

Honestly, no, I don't. You do you.

But I have noted through my adulthood there are enough strange busy-bodies trying to police a woman's every choice (or non-choice) or if not police it, comment on it, for it not to just be the odd bad apple in society.

Equally, parents also have elderly parent care, long term health conditions because becoming a parent does not go hand in hand with super powers to make you immune from these things, as previously mentioned people remain who they are post baby delivery!

YANBU OP but nobody is going to admit to it.

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago where everyone expressed wide eyed astonishment at the idea that anyone could judge childless women, and three other threads running alongside it bashing childless women (one asking for “legitimate reasons” why women wouldn’t have kids and then arguing with those commenting, a second asking what rhe childless planned to do for their lonely old age, and a third about how Jennifer Aniston just didn’t want to be a mum enough).

It happens but nobody will admit to doing it.

@Alaldlccmemsjzja

I often find people judge themselves more harshly as they’re worried others are judging them but in reality people are too busy/have enough internal problems to really judge others.

I don’t judge people on a weekly basis. I guess you could say I judge my neighbours who really doesn’t give a shit about her kids nor anyone else apart from her self. I feel sorry for the kids who are turfed out from dawn to dusk 9 months of the year for the adults to sporadicly yell at them to ‘shut the fuck up/stop fucking arguing/no you’re not coming in as you’re all doing my fucking head in’. But in reality I feel sorry for them as they probably had the same upbringing.

I condemn people who litter, don’t pick up after their dogs and commit crimes that cause harm to others but in all honesty I don’t know who these people are as they don’t usually do these things in front of an audience.

I judge men who don’t pay maintenance or bother seeing their kids but again, I don’t know these people as they don’t usually share this info.

Everyone is working thru life just trying to overcome obstacles and make the best of their situations. Some people are unlucky or have greater obstacles than others. I never judge anyone doing an honest days work or living an honest life. I really couldn’t care if someone is working in a minimum wage job or a CEO as long as they’re happy. If they’re not happy they don’t deserve to be judged.

They are some quite judgemental people out there but actually they should be pitied as they’re probably just projecting/making themselves feel better as their lives are probably less than great.

No but I have a little laugh when people refer to single, childless people are 'selfish' Um how? I have visions of women with babies inside them going , "Nope, you are not coming out! I don't want you!!"

Personally, I think many women with children face far more viscous societal judgement than women without children.

I think there is a lot more judgement towards:

• Teenage/ "young" (under 25) mothers.
• "Older," mothers, (particularly women who dare to have babies in their 40's, are frequently berated for being too old/ selfish etc).
• Women with children with different fathers, (attracts particularly viscous judgement).
• Women who have only children, (particularly women who are open about the fact they had an only child as they only wanted one, as opposed to fertility/ relationship issues).
• Women who dare to have "larger," families/ more than three children, (judged as so selfish they might as well have personally shot a polar bear).
• Single mothers.
• Lesbian/ Gay/ Bisexual mothers, (especially those openly raising children within a same sex relationship).
• Women who work full time before their children are school age.
• SAHM's who don't work at least part time when their children reach school age.
• Women who've made active decisions to be single mothers by choice, (e.g. via donor conception or adopting as a single mother).
• Poor mothers/ mothers with financial problems, ( Mumsnet in particular will tell them they should have thought about their finances before they had children).

Honestly, I would say mothers often become public property and probably face a lot more scrutiny/ judgement than people without children.