AIBU to make a complaint to head

[bothsidesofasmile]

Hi all,

I'm looking for some opinions on if I'm being unreasonable with my child's primary school. DS6 after being picked up from afterschool club was visibly upset. After asking what was wrong he told us that a member of staff at the after school club had shouted at him because he accidentally broke a new toy. He said he was putting it away as it was tidy up time and one piece didn't fit in the box, he thought said piece could come apart and I'm trying to pull it apart it broke. Another child told this member of staff who approached DS and he says told him off and told him not to do it again. His twin brother also confirms this story.

Now I should mention DS is on the SEN register and is on the autism diagnosis pathway for social and emotional issues. He can be a sensitive child and this is known by all staff members. I emailed DS class teacher and the sendco at the school as I thought this was a bit much for what had happened and was surprised a member of staff had approached DS in this way knowing of his additional needs. I sent the email feeling as if perhaps half of the story was missing as is often the case with children of DS age.

To my surprise the sendco at the school emailed me to confirm DS story. Although apparently there was no shouting but he was spoken to firmly. The sendco says the children had been warned that this was a new toy and they were to be careful with it. The Higher level ta confirms that she said it was a shame that it had got broken as no one could play with it now and that DS was upset but she make a big thing of it and encouraged him to move on to the next activity. The sendco says the ta acted appropriately for the situation.

Now this has thrown me a little AIBU to expect a child not to be shamed after an accident and to not need to be spoken to firmly after an accident? Or am I being too sensitive?

Who runs the after school club? Apologies if you have said. At the one at my dc's primary it is run by (very) poorly paid staff who are warm people but are not teachers or TAs and I'm sure will react as humans at times rather than carefully trained Sencos!
It's hard to see your dc upset I do have sympathy (and have a dc with a different neurodiversity who gets told off a lot)

It is a mix of ta and higher level TAs. This member of staff was a higher level TA and while I do understand they are human I would be happy if they said this could have been dealt with differently and will be in the future but they don't think anything should of been done differently.

It's tricky because I understand there point of the view but the fact is they aren't thinking of it from my DS point of view which is why I need to advocate for him otherwise he just gets lost in the neurotypical built system

I'm not actually that far from you - I'm in Gloucestershire (about to move to Tewkesbury). Don't really care if this outs me to anyone who knows me in real life 😊

If you ever want to pm, please feel free. It's bloody lonely on your own. I am lucky to be part of a strong SEN community and the help is amazing. Are you in any FB groups for SEN parents? They're a huge help too although not quite the same as friends in real life.

If your DS has been added to the SEN register and getting the level of support you describe, there should be a My Plan or My Plan+ in place. And the outcomes on this and the success of the interventions should be regularly reviewed and discussed with you. I would ask the SENCO for a copy of his My Plan - you're supposed to be sent this every time it's reviewed. You don't need to wait for a diagnosis to move through the My Plan/My Plan+/EHCP process.

I would actually suggest that this latest incident demonstrates your DS's needs are much greater than an average 6yr old and highlights the case that he needs more support because he doesn't have the capacity of his peers. (Sorry to be so blunt xx)

It sounds as if it would be beneficial to get an assessment from an Educational Psychologist - their input is usually very valuable. We found the SALT team absolutely brilliant too. Schools aren't keen to get an Ed Psych in because ££££, but once you apply for an EHCP they have to do it as part of the process.

You might find it useful to keep a log of the incidents which are occurring, even if they're only small and the strategies which have/haven't been used and their effectiveness. I used to keep a basic diary. It will help you when you need to present evidence, both for a potential diagnosis and if you go down the EHCP route.

This is an excellent point. My DC couldn't access after school provisions for this reason - the support wouldn't have been suitable and it wouldn't have been fair to the staff, nor my DC.

I think my concern would be that the SENCO is agreeing that it was the correct response.

If you pull something in the wrong direction, or in a way that's not intended, it doesn't take much at all to break it. I think we'll have to agree to disagree - I can't see how he was "rough".

On a separate note, I've always thought that toy manufacturers could do with getting parents in to give feedback on toys before they're released. The amount of toys that look fantastic and then when you get them out of the box they're flimsy and nowhere near robust enough! I remember my two had a Bananas in Pyjamas playhouse thing and honestly, you just had to breathe near the bastard staircase for it to collapse dramatically to the floor. Ten years on, I can still remember the pain of dealing with this shitty thing 😅

@ExhaustedFlamingo oh that's only about an hour and a half away from me!

Thank you! It is so lonely, I'm not in any groups any longer as I found them quite intense.

I've not heard of my plan but I will ask. When you say regularly, is this usually termly? I hardly have any contact with the senco unless I have a concern and I email her. With the ehcp how do I know if DS needs one? Or at which point to ask for this? Is asking for an ed psych to come in something I can do? Sorry for all the questions it's just I don't normally have someone so informed to ask.

Yes that's a good idea I will do that!

God I don’t agree at all with this thread. I don’t think it’s remotely acceptable to blame / shame a small child for an accident. Clearly people on this thread have no idea what it’s like to be/ have a sensitive child.

I’d definitely complain to the head Op. I’d also be raising questions about why the SENCO thinks it’s acceptable for someone to tell off a vulnerable small child for something completely unintentional .

Ps. The toy sounds crap anyway if it was that easy to break.

I thought that too 😂

But yes I think I'm going to try and come to some sort of conclusion with the senco and if I can't get some kind of agreement that things will be dealt with differently in the future. I will have to consider taking it higher

Lots of things have to change when a child is autistic bit it is still OK to be displeased with them breaking stuff and, if you are displeased, then it's helpful to convey that clearly through expression and tone.

How far does this go though and surely the situation matters? Context is everything

I don’t know. I don’t blame/ shame my small child for accidents / things she does unintentionally - even if they annoy me. Eg wetting herself. Do you?

bothsidesofasmile
Complaining about this is really the most stupid thing I have heard in a while. I have two children with ASD. I advocate for them and have in my time complained about provision and the need for adjustments. However, I save my complaints for serious issues. I also know that my children with ASD do sometimes need to be told in a firm voice that they have done the wrong thing. They also have to accept consequences. E.g. You won't wear your coat in the freezing cold - you stay in. You bite someone - you say sorry and you lose your time on the computer. Many children with ASD can with guidance understand consequences. They can learn from their mistakes. It might be tricky but they can. There are some who have very severe LD that can't, but that does not seem to be the case with your ds from your description of him. The best thing you could have done here is a social story with your child explaining what happens when someone is careless and breaks something that belongs to someone else. You could have then reinforced the message the TA gave him rather than undermined them.

You will get posters on here who are like you. They cannot have anyone tell their child they are wrong. They usually have awful experiences of school and are in almost constant conflict with their child's school, club leaders, swim teachers and whoever else you can think of. If this is the hill you want to die on, crack on but it will make those dealing with you treat you less seriously in the future. The fact that I only ever complained or whinged in relation to serious matters meant that staff treated my concerns and complaints properly. You will come under the category of moaner.

You could try a FB Parent Carer group for your area if there is one? I've found that to be the most practical group for advice - and a bit less intense 😅

I honestly think you could do with connecting with others because you're only just at the start of your journey and there is just SO much to wrap your head around. I have asked so many ridiculous questions along the way but having people to turn to who won't laugh if you need to ask something daft!

Also, I forgot to say in my previous post - the only thing I really ever regret is not trusting my gut instinct at the first school and being persuaded that I was in the wrong. I wish I'd moved my DC earlier as it had a very lasting impact on my DS that took a very long time to unpick (he tried mainstream with a 1:1 and an EHCP before moving to special school). It wouldn't hurt to visit some other schools in the area and meet with their SENCO - do you have any other school-aged DC that you need to consider?

sheffieldparentcarerforum.org.uk/information/education/the-myplan/ - this gives a good overview of a My Plan (I know it's not your area).

Not every local authority called it a My Plan, but the majority do. The process should look the same whatever label they give it - the outcomes should be agreed and set, the strategies implemented and then a review to see how effective the strategies have been. If the outcomes have been set properly and are appropriate, but are not being achieved and a gap remains between DS and his peers, then the next step needs to be taken. In Glos and many other LAs, this is called a My Plan+ (My Plan Plus). I know when we made our application for an EHCP for DD, they expected us to have spent sufficient time on the pathway and it needed to be documented. All the outcomes, strategies and progress had to be demonstrated and only when these failed, could an EHCP be considered.

I'm not sure what area you're in exactly, but this is the Birmingham Local Offer which includes the Graduated Approach. I believe reviews are supposed to take place once a term (at a minimum). www.localofferbirmingham.co.uk/education-health-and-care-plan/the-graduated-approach-sen-support-and-education-health-and-care-plans/

If you head straight for an EHCP application without being able to demonstrate the school has set outcomes, formulated strategies and no progress has been made, they won't agree to assess. An EHCP application comes in two parts - after the application is submitted, they first do an assessment to see if there's a case to assess. If they agree there IS a case to assess they go on to do a full EHCP assessment. It's very, very full of red tape and bureaucracy!

It doesn't matter whether the school is failing your son (and I'm not saying that they are) but the EHCP will only be agreed if the usual SEN strategies aren't working. The school has to provide a certain amount of SEN support, and only if your child's needs exceed this will an EHCP be granted. They don't like giving out an EHCP and it's not easy to get one. If the school isn't on board with your application, it's virtually impossible as you need evidence.

Sorry, I know this is long!! But the short answer is that the school should have documented objectives, strategies and progress, and a review process in place. Without an EHCP all of the support they give is up to them - but it will reflect very poorly if they are ignoring suggestions made by SALT. Has your DS seen an Occupational Therapist? They can be very useful too, especially with sensory needs.

Finally - an Ed Psych referral is like gold dust and I doubt your school would agree to one just yet. They would come in and observe your DS at school and then write a report with lots of recommendations about his difficulties and what he needs. The sooner they get involved the better, but generally schools wait until the EHCP application because again, £££.

If I were you, aside from dealing with this specific issue, I would ask what objectives/outcomes are in place for monitoring your child's progress and his SEN, and how this is being measured. I'd ask for a copy of his My Plan or similar. If there isn't one, I'd ask how it's being recorded and monitored. I'd ask whether the suggestions from SALT and being implemented, and if not, why not.

If the school aren't doing any of the above, I'd move your DS. It's bloody hard work battling a school who aren't on side. You shouldn't have to do this, but it's depressingly common with SEN. There's such an enormous variance in the quality of provision. Some schools are shit with SEN, others brilliant. Oh, and interestingly, some schools which rank worse for OFSTED can be the best for SEN so don't dismiss them entirely! Our school actually ended up in special measures while simultaneously being lauded as the best around for SEN, with the head asking to present talks to other schools!! Different horses for courses and all that!

He didn't bite anyone or refuse to put a coat on though did he! He broke something on accident while trying to put it away.

Thank you for telling me how I am as a person and trying to make me feel like 💩 i hope that made you feel better. I'm not moaning! I'm trying to make sure my child is dealt with in the appropriate manner and I work with the school to make sure this is done and in this instance I feel like they haven't dealt with it as good as they could of and that's prompted a discussion. P.s I have no problems with his swim teacher or his class teach or his ta or his drama club teacher or his gymnastics teacher ☺️

It's quite simply inaccurate to compare the OP's DS's behaviour to biting or refusing to put a coat on. The OP said:

The sendco says the children had been warned that this was a new toy and they were to be careful with it.

As far as her DS was concerned, he was doing just that - putting it away tidily - what you do if you are being 'careful'. He thought part of it was detachable - a mistake - not a wilful breakage. The instruction given was not specific enough to help the OP's DS avoid this accident.

I couldn't disagree with this post any more.

Standing up for your child's needs is not "being a moaner". I don't see how punishing ANY child for an accident is helpful, or conducive to learning. All it does is create a fear-based environment - and this point is amplified if the child is autistic.

Using a "firm voice" ie - a telling off - for an accident isn't going to help anyone. If there has been recklessness or lack of care, that's understandable but when it's a genuine accident caused by a lack of understanding, what on earth does a telling off achieve?! All it does is tell the child that their judgement is unsafe and that it's probably better not to do anything next time in case they get it wrong again.

No one is suggesting that a child can't be told that they are wrong. That would be ludicrous. What is being suggested is that a child who has an accident shouldn't be scolded. That is completely different.

My autistic DC are 13 years old and my DS has very significant needs. Both are kind, thoughtful and do their absolute best. They consider the feelings of others. Neither fit the bratty description suggested here. We also had a really positive and nurturing relationship with the school, despite occasional disagreements. My DS was really close to his teacher because he's such a kind little soul.

You don't need to be in "constant conflict" nor have "awful" experiences just for standing up for what your child needs.

A social story is an excellent idea but carelessness as a theme is irrelevant here. The child WAS being careful but believed that the toy came apart. A social story explaining that when a toy is new or belongs to someone else, putting it to one side if it doesn't fit in a box or asking for help are two possible solutions which are better.

Every parent is different, but this shows a real lack of understanding of the autistic brain and neurodiversity. There's an implication here that it's just sheer naughtiness rather than understanding needs. It's just one step away from ABA, and we all know how damaging that is.

As an autistic person person, with autistic DC, it's perfectly possible not to take such a punitive stance and not be in conflict with the school/professionals.

I didn't say your parenting was the reason. I said that your oversensitivity is going to rub off on him. I think parents should encourage resilience and learning from situations not complain when they don't like what happens.

@GooglyEyeballs is it not entirely possible to encourage those things and also speak up when you feel something needs a further discussion?

@ExhaustedFlamingo thank you so much! Your information has been invaluable! I think we will be looking at other schools because I do have that gut feeling that you talked about but then I have the fear that the next school may be worse!

The thing is, these kinds of expectations aren't applied universally to children with a disability.

Saying that children just need to learn resilience, toughen up, cope better etc etc only gets applied to invisible disabilities like autism etc. Never to physical disabilities.

Can you imagine saying to a child who had difficulty walking that they just need to suck it up and deal with the physical pain? Everyone would be outraged. Our children are treated so differently but their disability deserves no less consideration.

Autism is a neurodevelopmental condition where the brain is literally wired differently. There are difficulties with communication, sensory overload, processing, comprehension and so on.

Autistic children aren't being lazy, naughty, difficult etc for shits and giggles. It's a disability and just "being more resilient" isn't a solution for autistic children, any more than it is for a child who can't walk due to a physical disability.

My DM has cerebral palsy. The way she is treated is completely different - and there are zero expectations for her to "just crack on and stop making a fuss". Completely different to what is expected of my teen DC who are autistic. DM is treated with compassion and understanding but autistic people? Nah, you're just being moany....grow a backbone and stop expecting special treatment....right?

Thank goodness for parents like the OP who can recognise her DS's needs and is willing to voice her very reasonable concerns.

Of course he was upset, and rightly so - he knew he'd broken a new toy, albeit accidentally, that the children had specifically been told to be careful with. I'm not sure why you are equating being told off with being shamed? Are you suggesting children with SEND should never be told off?

You are very welcome @bothsidesofasmile - I can well remember how difficult is was in those early days. Finding the right school made such an enormous difference. I used to say to people that our lovely school transformed our lives - and it really, really did. I used to have to physically carry DS into school while he cried hysterically and begged me not to leave him there. Broke my heart doing that. And it knackered my back haha!

re the next school - at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, if there's any way you can find local SEN parents, even online, you'll get invaluable information about the local schools and which ones are the best. Failing that, think about what is going wrong at your school now, and the questions you wished you had asked. Ask for a meeting with the SENCO, ask how they come up with outcomes and progress, how they communicate with parents and take concerns on board. Trust your instincts - everything you've written here shows you have a wonderful, instinctive understanding of what your lovely boy needs.

Not at all

I get it. I have a similarly tempered child and it would probably cause some large setbacks and issues with getting him physically into school. He wouldn't trust that person again and he wouldn't want to engage in case he got something wrong.

I wouldn't shout at him (or anyone) for accidentally breaking something, because I wouldn't expect to be shouted at for an accident.

@ExhaustedFlamingo absolutely, that's such good advice. Thank you, you've made me have a little cry, it's so hard when you're faced with so many people who just see him as naughty and that I'm just pandering to him and commenting that im going to turn him into this or that. It's so lovely that some one like you can see that i'm just loving him how he needs to be loved 💐