Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

[Changeyncchange]

World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

You seem to think only British/English people are patriotic, or since you don't bat an eyelid at your parents supporting another country maybe it's fine so long as it's not England which is being supported

No I don't. That's just completely made up.

As I have stated clearly and repeatedly both in my OP and afterwards I think it's all bollocks.

It's leads people to get really defensive about the little island they live on on misread things in their haste to make a fool of themselves.

I agree. I'm white British all the way back, but not remotely patriotic. The UK is nice enough but I have no affinity for the current or our unwillingness to acknowledge the terrible things we as a nation have done in recent history. I'm greatful to have been born here as opposed to some other places.
My DH isn't british and feels similarly about his home country.
Overwhelming unwavering loyalty just because of nationality just doesn't make sense to me.

Of course they're real, in a political sense. They're also essentially arbitrary.

The country I now live in has a very obvious border with its neighbour comprising hills and rivers. Over centuries this has turned into a political border and a divergence of a common language. Fundamentally there is no difference in the personalities of the people, any perceived differences are cultural constructs.

That doesn't mean this country shouldn't resist invasion by the other, any more than I shouldn't resist someone trying to steal my stuff (even if it were, say, my sister).

Nationalities are not based on fundamental personality differences between groups of people, they're based on geographical, tribal, political boundaries that cultural crap (i.e. patriotism) gets overlayed on.

For some people this (bizarrely) means being "proud" of being able to wash their car in the street. As if that were a core aspect of the English personality, as opposed to a (presumably) quite recent local law in one other specific country.

But that’s what I’m offering 🤷🏻‍♀️

The current borders of countries determine the areas of land subject to the administration of particular governments. The vast majority of people within those borders are usually there through accident of birth, and through no achievement of their own. They can however be quite content living in a particular country, and don’t need to feel particularly patriotic in order to object to an invading force coming in, bombing the shit out of them, and trying to force them to conform to the will of another governing body.

For some people this (bizarrely) means being "proud" of being able to wash their car in the street. As if that were a core aspect of the English personality, as opposed to a (presumably) quite recent local law in one other specific country

My fave post so far.

I am very proud of being Welsh!

I tend to be proud of the things I've worked towards and achieved, not the things that were by chance and totally out of my control.

So I'm not proud to be born in this country, just like I'm not proud to be born in July, or in the 80s or whatever. It really wasn't up to me!

As for living here, well I live in Scotland and no, I do not feel patriotic in the slightest about living here. Embarrassed would be the word.

OK I'll bite. I'm Scottish and both sides of my family are Scottish farmers. We have lived in the same area for hundreds of years. I'm steeped in the history, culture and language I grew up with. It's not the stuff that the SNP try to impose.
I cry at bagpipes and Flower of Scotland. I'm a passionate supporter of the Scotland teams. I have lived a good part of my life in England but will never be English.
You remind me of John Lennon in his Yoko Ono stage of life.

I live 20 minutes from the Welsh border and was born even closer.

If I had been born 10 minutes down the road across the border would I be Welsh?

Well you remind me of my Grandparents.

One day you may end up with grandkids like me. Equally unmoved by bagpipes or God save the King.

I'm proud of my local area, an area quite close where I grew up, the city and country I live in/ was born in. I've done genealogy and can trace ancestors back 200 years to 2 miles away.

My heritage is in the air I breath, the streets I drive on, the parks I walk in, the food I eat and water I drink.

I go to the same shops and civil buildings my Victorian ancestors went to.

They worked to pay taxes for the infrastructure I now use.

I love that the values we have shared have been handed down through the generations and have benefitted us all- rule of law, womens rights, anti- corruption, collectivism through the welfare state, trial by jury, individual liberty.

There's no where else I'd rather live. Free healthcare. Gun control. No death penalty. Free abortion and contraception. Social security. Social care. Freedom of speech. Privacy rights.

I'm proud because I've been an active citizen in supporting these privileges. I vote, engage with politics, do activism etc. I can be proud of that. Of being part of creating the kind of society I want my decedents to live in.

To me patriotism is a force for good.

I think the difficulty is who gets the land / ownership. Yes wars are awful and struggles are terrible but how do you see it resolving?

Say China / Russia or other superpower wants England do we get a say? Maybe you do have a way to peacefully deal with that, I’m interested as may be missing it

It's weird isn't it?

I'm Scottish. What does that mean? It's really hard to say. Scottish isn't a nationality, legally speaking, at the moment. I was born on that part of the Earth's surface that we've labelled 'Scotland'. My parents were too. So that seems to make me Scottish. It appears I am also British - and I do have the papers to prove that. But I don't 'feel' British. I feel Scottish - if I feel anything. I don't think I'd like to have no nationality / identity to identify with, and Scottish is a pretty cool one.

One of my children was born in New Zealand. The other was born in France. Does that make them not-Scottish? I don't think it makes them Kiwi or French.

My youngest, born in France, can exercise his 'droit du sol' and claim French nationality at 13 - literally because he popped out of me on French soil (or in a hospital in France). Such a weird idea - that just being born on a specific piece of dirt somehow imbues him with some mystical essence or quality that the rest of us don't have? That he's more 'French' somehow because of it? Bizarre.

Humans are inherently tribal and whereas in the past our tribe was fairly small, local, mostly related to us (and therefore we had a genetic interest in contributing to the overall wellbeing of our tribe - to pass 'our' shared genes on most successfully), our tribes are much much bigger now. Same instincts, totally different setting.

There's patriotism that thinks your fellow countrymenxare as good as anyone and there is patriotism where you think your country is better than any where else

I like the sound of your grandparents

@Sillysop92 me too! I don't know if I'm patriotic as such, and I'm not a fluent Welsh speaker, but I love our language, music, our history, our beautiful hills and beaches. And I bloody love hearing the national anthem. Obviously there are a ton of shit things about Wales same as there are anywhere, but at my core I'm happy and proud to be Welsh.

DH is English and we've discussed this quite a bit, he said he struggles to find anything to feel patriotic about, and feels quite envious of how I feel about my country.

Do you find it equally strange to take pride in other things that are completely chance where a person has no control over? Such as gay and trans pride? Black pride? Being proud to be a woman?

@ caroleanboneparte ·

go girl; go.

I'm English and i'm very proud. I also think Scotland, Wales and Ireland are great and support them in any games that aren't against England 😂

We very much don't get a say. Realistically in that scenario the US would be the one with the say.

Just like Ukraine didn't really get a say with Russia and depend absolutely on UN support and international pressure.

Just like Scotland isn't getting their referendum nor Catalan.

Patriotism does not help.

The problem with your niave view is you keep forgetting that all sides are patriotic.

Just like Scotland isn't getting their referendum Thank fuck for that

But how do you reconcile that with the not so nice stuff?

Er it’s not naive I’m just asking you questions.

You suggested war was a bad outcome to having countries so I asked how would you resolve it peacefully?

Are you now admitting it’s not possible to do that (plus throwing in an insult). I don’t get why it’s hard to answer straight questions though. You make it sound easy to avoid conflict if everyone just accepted countries ‘aren’t real’, but maybe it’s not.

There is no Utopia.

Very proud to be English and Britain. This is an incredible country with an incredible history.

Pisses me off that it's considered wrong in some way to be proud of being British. We're the only country where it's seen as weird and racist to fly our flag.