Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

[Changeyncchange]

World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

Yes, I love being Welsh as it means I'm not English - only joking ;)! Yma o hyd! I'm married to an English man, but he can't help not being perfect! Tongue-in-cheek!

Speaking for myself, I'm not proud to be a woman, I just am one.

And those examples are not really comparable because they're about political movements campaigning for equal rights, not people randomly declaring they are proud of their race / sex / sexuality.

You might as well ask if it's equally strange for people to take pride in being white - the people that do that are not often benign forces.

Which brings us back to the patriotism point the OP is making - a lot of people forget that in e.g. a war, both sides consider themselves patriots. No-one self-identifies as the baddies.

If you were Welsh, I'm sure you'd feel different ;)

👆🏻What they said.

You are confusing me with somebody else.

You keep throwing Ukraine in the discussion as if it supports the concept of patriotism.

I am pointing out that your logic is faulty.

I'll spell it out.

You seem to be implying that patriotism is good because it inspires people to defend their country if invaded.

I am pointing out that by that logic patriotism is often also the reason for the invasion and really doesn't help your argument.

It's also bizarre in the extreme to assume that patriotism is the reason people would prefer not to be bombed.

Hope that helps.

I think the nation we grow up in forms some core aspects of our personality and values. Our identity, if you will. And it is natural, and arguably even rational to be proud of this.

So in England we value honesty and fairness.

I am forgetful and have lost my purse on a number of occasions. I have always got it back. Usually with the money inside.

We famously queue, and wait our turn.

We allow the wierd and eccentric. Harder for me to give a concrete example here, more something I feel to be true having lived elsewhere.

We by and large and not without exceptions treat our women and minorities well.

We have the freedom to be religious (or not).

These are not things that happened by luck or accident. We built them together.

Of course, there are some truly awful things in our past. Some even in the fairly recent past. Of course borders are tricky and somewhat arbitrary, but national identity is still real with real effects on the world.

Overall, I am fond and proud of our nation as it is today.

That's why Ukraine will prevail against all the odds.
@Changeyncchange I think it’s about Russia being much bigger and stronger then Ukraine at the first sight but fighting for its land and way of life makes Ukraine much more stronger then Russia. “prevailing at all odds” is not a meaningless sentiment for Ukrainians. They are fighting life and death to achieve this.

Nope. I’ve just asked you two straightforward questions.

No answer though to either post. Just around the houses so muddled responses.

I am Scottish - born and bred. I dislike patriotism and despise Scottish nationalism. The landscape of Scotland is in my bones, I feel a part of it and it is part of me. I love my home and my country. But pride? It is an accident of birth that I am Scottish. It is my choice to stay and make it my home. I am worth no more than all the other people who have chosen to make Scotland their home, just because I happen to have been born here. There is a very ugly streak of 'wha's like us', saltires painted on faces, Scottish exceptionalism that I utterly reject. But I still love Scotland.

Our identity, if you will

Yeah this is probably another reason I dislike it.

I'm not a fan of "identity" as this conceptually inexplicable innate thing we all have.

But those things are not exclusively political movements. People often do take pride in and form their own groups and communities based on intrinsic and chance characteristics completely apart from politics.

Pride and patriotism are extensions of the feeling of belonging which is an inherent part of the human condition. People form and take pride in groups for all sorts of reasons, around all sorts of things. Nations are just one of many.

I love being British/English and I love England despite all it's issues and although I love to travel, there's nowhere else I would rather have been born. I'm not sure it that makes me patriotic or not.

Not innate. Created by the environment we grow up in.

At least those elements relevant to this discussion.

Yes they do, doesn't make any of it less arbitrary. It's just tribalism.

I've never seen anything to convince me that there are intrinsic national traits.

The landscape of Scotland is in my bones, I feel a part of it and it is part of me.

What does this mean? How can a landscape be in your bones? The land is just rock and soil and water and bugs. How can that be part of you and you, it?

It's all feelings, right, feelings of belonging somewhere and to something. that makes sense: humans couldn't survive on their own for long, back in the day. So we are programmed to seek attachment to something bigger than ourselves?

Fair enough. Not innate but still entirely conceptual and utterly inexplicable.

Well ideas like honesty and freedom are conceptual but not inexplicable.

Explained by what we teach our children, what we write read and watch on TV. Who we vote into power. What we do for a living. And so on.

Yes but they're not innate to any given nation, or even that clearly defined. They vary over time depending on prevailing politics. When people say they're proud of "British values" it's a total nonsense.

Not innate in the strict sense, rather in the sense that where we are born and how we are raised is pure chance and is something we have no control over, so in the broad sense it is a difference without distinction.

Obviously it’s their interpretation of British values and it means something to them, even if not everyone.

So no I wouldn’t say it’s nonsense.

Concepts and beliefs can be deconstructed and analysed to the point that they appear arbitary. You can analyse pretty much anything if you want until it seems to make little sense.

Off the top of my head - ironing - over analyse ironing and it will begin to appear pointless.

*arbitrary

Patriotism is very much alive and well. My family, who are all of white British heritage, have a very strong sense of their 'roots' and are very proud to be Britsh- and even more so of their Yorkshireness!

I don't trust people who are not patriotic

Your background is tainting your view OP

I disagree.

English people in general have different values to someone raised in Russia, or China or America or even France or Italy.

Look at, for example, views on private health care in the USA.

Yes, they change over time. But not impossible to define or discuss.