Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

[Changeyncchange]

World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

I did it again. I'm giving up.

I feel exactly the same as you and I'm as English as they come.

People say things like they are proud of "Britishness", and define it as some vague qualities to do with fairness (despite there being no evidence that the British are uniquely fair-minded).

In my experience, people all over the world are essentially the same. They have the same motivations, desires, sense of humour. Any perceived differences usually boil down to nothing more than quirks of language translation and varying tastes in food.

Nationality is a complete crap-shoot.

I do love a football tournament (not this one though), but I'll watch matches for their own sake rather than who's playing. I might decide to root for a particular team on a whim, or if I've got them in a sweepstake, but I feel no special affinity for England.

It's a load of old bollocks, IMO.

Because every person, including you, contributes to your country even if you don't realise it.

If you take your litter home rather than chucking it on the verge, you are contributing to a pleasant environment. If you don't discriminate against people you are contributing, if you maintain your house and garden to the benefit of your neighbourhood, your sense of humour, all these things add to your home country.

I love that I can wash my car on the street and no-one minds. If you do that in Switzerland you get fined.

You might not value it, but it isn't bollocks.

I appreciate certain things but when people talk about duty I switch off. I remember an article re the duty to celebrate Jubilee etc

I enjoyed the day with neighbours but if I want to opt out of something I can

Countries are entirely made up they're not truly 'real' so patriotism is just over enthusiastic bollocks for excusing a notion of us and them.

Ok but does that extend to just accepting another country taking over. What would you do in Ukraine?

I agree with @TheLeadbetterLife

I think once you have lived and travelled around enough different places, you start to see that people are basically the same, we have the same motivations, the same needs and desires, the same need for love and connection and to be understood.

People are just people, doesn't matter where they are from.

Culture and history are of course interesting and important, but when I hear the word 'Patriotism' I'm afraid I personally now associate it - rightly or wrongly - with a small-minded, 'Little Britain' type mentality. I know that's not all it is and there are certain things that can be unifying. But I think really I could live without this as a concept.

I'd rather be 'patriotic' in terms of thinking about my connection a much larger group such as humanity as a whole. I very much feel a part of that.

*Because every person, including you, contributes to your country even if you don't realise it.

If you take your litter home rather than chucking it on the verge, you are contributing to a pleasant environment. If you don't discriminate against people you are contributing, if you maintain your house and garden to the benefit of your neighbourhood, your sense of humour, all these things add to your home country*

That's nice. I like that. I ccould get on board with patriotism if it's about community and working together. Then it veers into

*I love that I can wash my car on the street and no-one minds. If you do that in Switzerland you get fined.

You might not value it, but it isn't bollocks*

And it's lost me again.

The second bit is necessary though isn't it? You have to be think "we're" special/better than other countries otherwise its not patriotism. It's just being considerate.

I find it all a bit bewildering, but I have passports in 3 different nationalities and have people of 10 different nationalities in my immediate family, and I'm not English, although my children are.

Just because someone acknowledges that the concept of nationality is bollocks, it doesn't follow that they should tolerate being invaded.

There are very obvious reasons to resist invasion by a hostile force. Much more obvious than supporting a particular football team.

Again, I would like to refer you to Afghanistan.

And for that matter what about Russia. Is Russian patriotism good?

Why would it? Why do you have to be patriotic in order to take issue with being bombed? 🥴

I agree it's bollocks. Between dh, me and my dc we can lay claim to 6 different nationalities.

They all contain good things, bad things, indifferent things. The people in all the countries are people, some good, some bad, some indifferent.

The notion that I should be 'proud' of one of them baffles me. I have emotional attachments to lesser or greater degrees to all of them, but it's just the luck of the draw that they are the ones I happen to have connections with. Doesn't make them better than any others.

I don't have a problem with people having a strong connection to a place they have spent all their lives in. It's when it becomes an excuse to 'other' people who don't have the same that it becomes a problem. And the idea that someone brought up in central London with a strong connection to it has more in common with someone brought up in rural Norfolk, say, than someone brought up in New York leaves me utterly confused.

Apparently so. And we are also not going to mention that patriotism is also driving the invasion.

My father’s Russian, so am also wondering if our characters are lacking because neither of us feel particularly loyal to Russia.

Bloody annoying emoji for a stupid post.

Is that the limit of what you took from it.

T’was all it was offering 😬

Patriotism is just another tool to hide bigotry and racism.

The whole idea of nationalism is flawed and unethical.

I felt much like op until I spent time living abroad.

It really made me appreciate English values, humour and way of life.

I still think we are all human with much I common, and I am still interested in other cultures and ways of thinking.

But there is definitely such a thing as 'Englishness' and much to be said for it.

Well if countries are purely made up and ‘not real’ as a pp put it what does that mean in terms of protecting them

Patriotism seems to mean football on this thread though. If people get enjoyment from their team, fine. I don’t get the superiority.

Well, if billions of people around the world weren't 'patriotic' there wouldn't be any point having any international sporting event, would there? No Olympics, no World Cup, Euros, no cricket, no Six Nations rugby no Davis Cup, the list is quite long.

You seem to think only British/English people are patriotic, or since you don't bat an eyelid at your parents supporting another country maybe it's fine so long as it's not England which is being supported.

Sure you can keep your emojis then.

So much defensiveness on this thread.

Well if countries are purely made up and ‘not real’ as a pp put it what does that mean in terms of protecting them

Indeed. Isn't it a concept that causes wars?

Russia feel Ukraine is rightfully theirs. A good majority of the Northern Irish think they are occupied. China and Tawain. India/Pakistan and Kasmir. Christ we could be here all night.

Are these good things. Have they had good outcomes?