Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

[Changeyncchange]

World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

Nobody on this thread said wars wouldn’t happen if there were no countries or patriotism. A couple of posters pretended or imagined it was said, presumably because they’re determined to argue against points no-one is actually making.

When my mum does this, it’s because she wants to steer every conversation on to her current personal bugbear (usually some bonkers conspiracy theory she’s picked up on Facebook. At the moment it’s the Great Reset, but she definitely knows all the words to “Everyone Else In The World Is Allowed To Be Patriotic”).

Intresting thread. Reminds me of an essay question on my IR course.

In order to answer the title question it is surely necessary to define the terms, i'd suggest "patriotism" and "bollocks" for starters.

There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism IMO, and I'd define the former as the flag-waving, national-sport-team-supporting folk and the latter as the "we are superior because we come from X".

Assuming we are talking about a nebulous "proud of the country but not trying to force people to confirm and rejecting all others as undesirable" types, there is a lot to be said for "patriosm". Humans are social animals who function best in groups. The basic group would be a nuclear family, wider family, then ever increasing communities until you get to the (somewhat arbitrary, but in the cases of places like Britain and Australia pretty easy to define) geographical area called "country".

And yes, it is all accident of birth, but so is everything pretty much. So outside of accident of birth what ties you to a country? Moving elsewhere is a pretty massive move, and you do risk the chance of being a permanent outsider, for generations to come. And then the 2nd generation are often conflicted, especially where the immigrating generation really do go all out to show loyalty to their new home, but still retain strong ties to the old one. (and then you get idiots like Tebbit and his "cricket test")

In terms of generally supporting English/British teams in big events, yeah, why not? I was born here, they're selected from the best people with the same passport as me, and why not? It's arbitrary. Even if i don't care about indoor-ballooning, i'd probably "support" (ie be happy for them if they do well) the English/British team. I can get inter-British rivalry so long as it remains light-hearted and am not of the ABE mindset (notwithstanding: i'm actually English and i totally understand why Scottish people will always support England's opponent). In terms of support for sports teams (probably any other type of team) I'm usually: England, then NI, Wales, Scotland, Germany (I'm an immigrant), Ireland, European country, underdog. Not because i think they are best in any way, but they are the ones i feel closest affinity to.

For sport (again) i do notice that groups of nationals tend to be a bit over the top if they are watching their team in a different country. (singing a bit louder, embracing total strangers in the team shirt when a goal is scored etc)

And if you want to talk about feeling unable to display the national flag in their own country, speak to Germans who have only really started to embrace that since the world cup was held here. It is complicated.

the tl;dr version: it boils down to your reaction to the question "my country, right or wrong?"

No one is ‘pretending’ just having a discussion trying to ascertain what these woolly concepts mean in conclusion.

People get defensive and bring in their ‘Mum does this’. Terrible debating though, it should be done more at school.

wanted to bring up another point and this one shows it really well:

I’m Welsh and proud of it. My parents were from the same part of rural West Wales and I like to think the soil there is full of my DNA. I’m proud of my country’s language and culture having prevailed despite centuries of attempts to wipe it out. Yma o Hyd!

Some languages (tied up with a country, generally) have a word for that feeling of it being home, and have so much more meaning than "home" which is difficult to describe. Apologies to Welsh speakers, i hope i have spelled it correctly: Hierath (in Welsh) or Heimat in German. I'm sure other countries have that.

For me a lot of what is described as patriotism is tied up with feelings of being home and being comfortable with where and who you are.

(you have to be careful with German words sometimes for obvious reasons. But as pp pointed out with the English flag and the EDL, slowly slowly some of these words and meanings are being taken back from the Nazis and re-integrated into normal German)

How can a thread be this long and no one quotes the good Doctor Johnson ?

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

I didn't because i don't think he's right 😀

3 succinct points:

• to OP and others saying patriotism (or pps' explanations of it) makes no sense. It does to us! I'm not going to pour my heart and soul out on MN, but it's something you feel in your heart - and if you don't, you don't. No problem. T understand - think of something which has this effect on you personally.
• Pps saying that 'our ancestors have done terrible things in the past' . And - whose ancestors haven't? Different times! I bet everyone's ancestors have clubbed someone to death at some point, or gone to watch someone burned at the stake. It's universal - Britain is just one of those countries with a pretty well-documented history so we know about these things. It's a really silly, childish comment. Look at the good stuff too - the courage, the enterprise, the inventiveness etc.
• Yes - all this anti-British stuff for the sake of it was one of the reasons I stopped me reading the Guardian. It just got so predictable. There would be a report of some tragedy/injustice somewhere in the world and you could skip to the final paras to read that yes, it was in fact Britain's fault in some bizarre way. I think the Labour Party realised a few years ago that it wasn't a good look when trying to get elected and they've sensibly moved away from mocking patriotism.

But over and above what I've written above - OP - you should have defined clearly what you mean by patriotism, or the whole discussion is going to be rather confused and pointless. I find that people who are defiantly unpatriotic think it means marching around like the SA in Nazi Germany, when all most people mean is supporting the team or tearing up listening to Nimrod from the Enigma Variations.

It is interesting. I know full well I’m shaped by my own experiences of patriotism/nationalism (where is the line drawn?) and how the very worst in people can surface in the name one’s country.

In the museum of Yugoslavia there’s a section of Milosevic era propaganda, some of which I remember from being a child. It absolutely stoked and played on nascent fears that the ‘other’ was coming to wipe us out. Unfortunately it is a sentiment that is ripe for manipulation of those in power, but then it if it wasn’t that it would be something else.

Humans are a tribal species, and I don’t believe there’s been a time in human history where that hasn’t been war.

Not being patriotic doesn’t mean you can’t appreciate a country, or even love living in it. It also doesn’t mean that you’re ashamed of your country or disdainful towards it. Like I said in a previous post, I’ve lived in a few and travelled to more, and I can point out great and shit things in all.

Although I wouldn’t call myself patriotic, it’s always seemed to me to be a valuable thing, if you are, to acknowledge where your country has been, and is doing, wrong. If you love your country, I would think you’d want the best for it. But patriotism is very often used to shut down any criticism, as if any action of a country can be justified by virtue of it being committed by that country.

If you take out the you must be ashamed angle and the you’re all scoundrels angle which tends to make people defensive on either end it’s quite a good question to consider.

Culture’s post is good, I agree generally but also a definition of patriotism might help as we could be coming at it from different places.

When my mum does this, it’s because she wants to steer every conversation on to her current personal bugbear

Listen to your mum, she's older and undoubtedly wiser

Also, what's with the German bashing on this thread?

Whenever I meet or see someone from Germany, they are just normal people who fly their flags during sports, etc and who are very proud of their country. They have every reason to be. An incredibly intelligent, focused, methodical, high achieving nation.

I don't see them nowadays walking with their heads down because of a dark period in their history.

I do feel something akin to “love” for England and the UK. I grew up here, it informs much of my thinking (the books I read, the TV I watch, the jokes I find funny). I find the history interesting and I can see links that extend back hundreds of years. Tribalism is a normal part of human existence, so I believe a positive form of patriotism (cherishing the good, seeing the faults and wanting to change them) can be a force for good.

That's a misquote of Samuel Johnson AND completely misunderstands what he was saying about Patriotism which we now call Nationalism.

He was not referring to patriotism itself.

Link: interestingliterature.com/2021/05/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel-meaning-origins/

hehorsehasnowbolted · Today 11:03
Also, what's with the German bashing on this thread?
Whenever I meet or see someone from Germany, they are just normal people who fly their flags during sports, etc and who are very proud of their country. They have every reason to be. An incredibly intelligent, focused, methodical, high achieving nation.
I don't see them nowadays walking with their heads down because of a dark period in their history.

Haven't seen any, but I haven't read all the responses. In my previous post I mentioned how sad I was when a young German guest told me that no-one in his country was patriotic because of their history. I replied that I thought he should be very proud of his country's cultural and scientific achievements - there was so much to feel proud of - and not to let the Nazi period define it. But I suppose modern Germany is very mindful of the past and perhaps has gone to the other extreme in avoiding anything which might be suspected of being nationalism.

The sort of patriotism I feel for England (and Britain too) is what gives me a natural affection and respect for other countries - it's not a negative, exclusive emotion at all.

Also, what's with the German bashing on this thread?

it's always the way as soon as questions like this pop up. I remember being at a football match, in a German club shirt, and having a load of drunk English/British men sing "two world wars and one world cup" at us and only stopped when i told them I didn't appreciate their fuckwittery, having been in the military, and which regiment had those upstanding patriots served in. Silence.

But the flag thing is interesting. So growing up the Flag of St George wasn't really a thing that i remember during world cups and so on. but it crept in and despite the sidetrack by the EDL has been pretty much A Thing in England and England supporters for a while now. Meanwhile in Germany during International competitions you'd see all manner of national flags flying (usually hung out of a house/apartment window). But no German ones. Right up until they hosted the world cup in 2010. And suddenly we were in a country that was a lot more comfortable with itself. More comfortable that they are engaging with their recent (and not so recent) history, and feeling more comfortable in their skin. And the German flag was everywhere: cars, on faces, on hairbands, nails, and bunting everywhere. And you'd see apartment buildings with a dozen different flags out of the windows, including german ones, often a german one from the same apartment of one of the others.

all the old problems haven't gone, and similar to other countries the right are resurfacing - the difference here, i think, is that the counter demos to these are very well organised, can be spontaneous, and very large. Usually much larger than those of the far right. They are not backward, now, about deciding which bits of patriotism are ok on the whole, and which are nationalism and therefore not tolerated. (for reasons there are very complicated rules on "free speech" here)

I agree. I've never seen being born a particular nationality as an achievement to be proud of (or a failing to be ashamed of depending on the nationality) Its just chance and not a reflection of whether someone is a good person or not.

At the moment it’s the Great Reset

I would be interested in your opinion on the WEF and its key leaders. They appear not to believe in borders or patriotism either.

It will provide a good opportunity for your and the OPs' brain to short-circuit again

BomboChipolata · Today 11:20
I do feel something akin to “love” for England and the UK. I grew up here, it informs much of my thinking (the books I read, the TV I watch, the jokes I find funny). I find the history interesting and I can see links that extend back hundreds of years. Tribalism is a normal part of human existence, so I believe a positive form of patriotism (cherishing the good, seeing the faults and wanting to change them) can be a force for good.

Exactly - it's nothing sinister for anyone to get steamed up about! We're not talking BNP.

But a member of the BNP (likewise in Germany the AfD) would say they are patriotic. And that is the danger. Those with nationalistic tendencies saying over and over that they are patriotic and corrupting the meaning of patriotic until it is the same as their nationalism.

And to a degree, i think, they have succeeded very well because the number of people afraid to show a St George's flag, or say they are patriotic is dwindling because of this corruption. There is a fightback, obviously, but most people's first reaction on seeing an England flag flying outside a house now is "shit, is that the BNP? the EDF? or is it just someone supporting the national team?"

I'm not a fan if being proud if where your mum happened to give birth to you, and especially not a fan of geographical dividing lines imposed by football teams

The argument there becomes whether we allow the BNP etc to become the custodians of patriotism, or whether the positive form can be shared by a benevolent majority

Good point. There are many of us here for the benevolent version.

That's the point, though, isn't it? To have a tipping point where flying the flag or wearing a red and white wig or whatever doesn't automatically get people thinking "flag shagging BNP wanker"

Tis upto you to decide how you feel, but many love our history, warts and all, love our country, despite its failings, love our lives, yet realise we are incredibly lucky to live in this part of the world.

There’s nothing wrong with feeling an affinity to a greater or lesser degree than others.

There is an unreasonableness that is telling others they can’t be proud of their country, that it’s all bollocks.

To some people, the beauty of their homeland will never be surpassed, the people they identify with, the songs of its history will be in their heart. It’s home, it will always be that.

It’s ok for you to not feel that.

Every flag is also flown by local racosts. It is mainly ST George's which has issues to that extent and to be really frank, but also sorry, I think it's the English people themselves with the over politness who did it in.
Are neonazis in our countries waving national flags? Of course, does it stop us having it everywhere (especially during ice hockey) and on official buildings? Fuck no