Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

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World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

This.

I don't understand the concept of patriotism and being proud of a country unless the word "proud" means something different to the "proud" people.

But then I also don't understand how it's possible to be proud of a person. I mean, I adore the bones of my DS and think he's a truly wonderful and impressive human being, but saying I was proud of him would be taking credit for his demeanour and achievements. All I feel I can take credit for is not having made a complete arse of parenting.

It's like that with towns and countries. Yorkshire is my spiritual home, but I'm not proud of it. That would feel weird.
^
I want England or Wales to win the World Cup, though, because it will make friends and family happy.^

Birth place is just luck, I’ve been lucky, but people can still feel pride about whatever they want.

Others can feel nothing too as their wish

This is a really good example of why it's bollocks.

What does that mean about Ukraine? Does it mean countries who were successfully invaded and occupied did not love their country enough?

Any Scots care to comment?

Blimey - not sure what happened with those italics. I'm on the app.

Yes. I feel really proud to be from my local area. I feel part of it and an affinity with it. I understand its past and how it shaped my grandparents and in turn my parents.

I feel no such affinity with England. I feel like patriotism was basically a tool to get people to fight in wars in the past, to pay taxes and not to question the government. Basically a tool for manipulation.

I know people complain about the decline in patriotism but I look at ww1 and I don't think it would happen now. I don't think that now there would be the same level of acceptance/support for millions of primarily working class men being sent to their deaths for a bit of a land grab.

I also hate how much it is used as an excuse not to teach Britain's real history and the suggestion of proper history teaching is deemed unpatriotic. We'd all be horrified if we met a German person who didn't know about the concentration camps yet here in Britain schools wax on about British values while most people have no real understanding that we too had concentration camps in Kenya.

If we want people to really be patriotic people first need to understand what it is they are actually proud of.

I like aspects of this country, there's also things I don't like, but I struggle to imagine feeling proud or patriotic about it.

I do however dislike the way patriotism has been used in the past as a tool to oppress people. Also the deeply cynical way patriotism is used today - politicians with flags and pictures of the queen on their desks whilst actually running our health service and public sector into the ground.

That statement about protecting and defending has made me think.

There are lots of things i would like to protect and defend in England and in the english way of life.

There are things id like to improve too and i suppose things id like to share with future generations as they make me feel good.

So you understand patriotism as "strong links"? What does that mean? Is it an emotion?

If that is how you feel, you can't help it.

I'm proud of being British, having worked around the world.

We are generally tolerant, we don't execute people, we have gay marriage, we have maternity leave and the NHS (yes, I know). It is possible to start out penniless and still have a good life. There is a safety net, it might not be much fun but it is there.

We have creativity and eccentricity, the BBC, free museums and galleries.

I know we have problems at the moment but I'm still luckier than most of the world's population.

Do you think Ukrainians are wrong to fight for their country or is it all much of a muchness Russian / Ukrainian it doesn’t matter?

I'm White Brit but went to Catholic schools, 3/8 of my great grandparents were Irish, including both sides. We were never taught any of the flag waving stuff, there was the odd mention of Oliver Cromwell and the potato famine.

I'm neither proud nor not-proud of Englishness, we've done some good things and some bad things. People who feel 100% either way seem to me to be ignorant or weirdos.

I also hate when people take generic good qualities (tolerance, fairness etc) and act like this is something really unique to their country!

I agree. I don’t feel any particular way about being British. I’m not English by heritage and I don’t feel any particular way about that either. I just am. Like a PP said it’s all an accident of birth. It doesn’t matter to me at all.

If England were invaded by a country that wanted to strip me of my rights would you call it patriotism that I was against it?
Would I suddenly be patriotic? What if I lived in Afghanistan and I didn't want the Americans to pull out because I would be stripped of my rights. Is that unpatriotic?

As I say, for me it's more down to heritage - I love the beautiful nature of the region I live in and I am interested in heritage crafts, folk music and local history. I don't really think that's patriotism though.

How you feel is fair enough. Personally I'm proud of my heritage, I think patriotism is great and I like seeing it from other nationalities too. Thought how nice to see such emotion and pride from the Welsh at the WC last night.

I’ve never understood patriotism. Where you’re born is total chance. What is there to be proud of?

Also my point was your sentence at the end about prevailing against all odds. Such an emotive phrase, exactly what I think of when I think of patriotism. Meaningless sentiment.

I agree there are some things about Britain’s laws and policies that are good and comparatively better than some other places (and vice versa). But that doesn’t make me proud. It’s just luck of the draw that I was born here and not, say, El Salvador where women are criminalised for having miscarriages. Plus, countries can and have had huge ideological shifts, those values are usually the result of law and policy making and not set in stone. I am proud I guess to be what I consider a liberal and fair person but that doesn’t feel linked to Britishness to me.

I’m born and bred in U.K. white British heritage. I also think Patriotism is bollocks.

Me too.

Yes my heritage means a lot to me. I am proud of traditional British values such as tolerance, fairness, and even queuing.

This kind of inaccurate stereotypical bollocks particularly does my head in. Do you have even the slightest bit of evidence that the average British person is fairer and more tolerant than anyone else?

I'm a teacher, and whenever I see the obligatory posters in schools promoting 'British values' it absolutely makes me cringe to think what our non-British students must think when they see them. What a smug, blinkered and arrogant attitude!

I’m not sure who you are quoting. My question was stand alone.

Not sure if you answered it or just questions back

Sorry, not sure what happened!

I know we have problems at the moment but I'm still luckier than most of the world's population.

Oh absolutely. I definitely feel lucky to have been born here and live here, as I would feel lucky to live in any compataratively wealthy and safe country, but that's not the same as patriotism.

Also my point was your sentence at the end about prevailing against all odds. Such an emotive phrase, exactly what I think of when I think of patriotism. Meaningless sentiment.