To ask HOW he/they or she/they works?

[Henuinequest]

On a DE&I video call at work and the session panel did intros with pronouns stated - 2 of them said ‘I’m he/them’ and one said ‘she/they’. All panellist were trans identifying.

asking a practical question - if someone is he/ them, I’m fine just to to refer to him as he or him? As in ‘ let’s wait 2 mins to see if Josh is coming. He said he could make it’ or I’m I supposed to be saying them ??
the panel was all about trans day of remembrance or something like that so it didn’t feel appropriately to start asking them…

Quee used to be a slur. Very much in my lifetime. I would not date a trans person but that's nothing to do with their genitalia, it's because I see transnas dressed up sexism. I don't feel rhe need to state my politics when describing my sexual orientation though. There are two sexes, saving extremely rare disorder. Bi covers attraction to both and then you are allowed to screen out any potential partner for any.reason you see fit.

That’s just factually inaccurate. Linguistics has noted the use of singular they since they 1300s, that’s older than the first use of singular you by several hundred years, but we manage that as being both singular and plural. So if your irritation is linguistic, it’s misplaced.

But the grammatical reasons aren't outdated, are they? I mean, 'they' is a plural pronoun. You can't just change the rules.

But the grammatical reasons aren't outdated, are they? I mean, 'they' is a plural pronoun. You can't just change the rules.

But it isn’t just a a plural pronoun @Meem321
I saw a person walk down the street. They were wearing a red coat.
It’s literally a pronoun you use when not specifying a gender - hence why non-binary people use it. It makes perfect sense to me - I really don’t understand the debate and confusion around it. It’s very simple English.

You use it when you don't know the sex of the person. Not when you do but are pretending not to. We often need to differentiate whether we are talking about a single person or a number of people to aid communication.

@howmanybicycles Indeed. I always think a good example of they working as a pronoun for an individual is in Great British Bake off when Paul and Prue are discussing the technical challenge. They don’t know who baked what so comments such as “They’ve over baked this cake” make perfect sense.

But then later on when they know who baked what and are discussing the contests they automatically say “She overbaked the cake”. Using ‘they’ for a single person once you know whether they’re male or female just sounds odd.

It includes both sexes, people who are intersex etc. I don’t have preferences based on looks at all really, it’s all about connection and personality, which is where the pansexuality comes in. The issue some people have with the term bisexual is that they see it as referring to two genders, or they see it as being 50/50. I don’t think some bisexual people would see me as bisexual because my sexuality is trans inclusive, which is why I’d choose the term gay or queer. A lot of bisexual people I know are only attracted to men and women, not people who define themselves by other terms. I’d say every straight person would say they’re only attracted to people of the opposite sex, which is why bisexuality differs in the sense that people define it differently. I don’t really care what other people refer to me as though, whether that be gay, bi, lesbian. I’m just definitely not straight lmao. I’d say that queer is anything other than straight.

It includes both sexes, people who are intersex etc. I don’t have preferences based on looks at all really, it’s all about connection and personality, which is where the pansexuality comes in

I’d say every straight person would say they’re only attracted to people of the opposite sex,

That's quite an expansive definition for yourself and a pretty short one for straight people. Just to balance this up, I consider myself straight. I do not really have preferences based on looks. For me too, like many, it is based on connection and personality. I largely fancy people who are male bodied but occasionally find myself interested in a woman. I've never done anything with a woman though so don't think it's reasonable to commandeer the term bi to describe me. Most people I know look for a great deal more than looks and I'm not sure it's hugely respectful to suggest that people other than you are just shallowly choosing based on what someone looks like.

A lot of bisexual people I know are only attracted to men and women, not people who define themselves by other terms. I’d say every straight person would say they’re only attracted to people of the opposite sex, which is why bisexuality differs in the sense that people define it differently.

You're mixing concepts here. Bi people who haven't bought into gender ideology potentially fancy any person. Those who have been captured would say they fancy people of either male or female gender surely? So there are two types of bi people? Those who believe biology to be a fact and those who don't believe in biology?

A lot of bisexual people I know are only attracted to men and women, not people who define themselves by other terms.

Those people who identify as a thing, are all still men or women. You know that right? There isn't a third sort of adult, in addition to men or women.

Also queer theory was invented by (redacted) people, those who want to reduce the age of consent and to decriminalise anyone having sex with someone under the age of consent. I'd personally want to be Trans Queer, on the other side of queer theory, in everything I said and everything I did.

Sheesh why do we have to explain this time and again. Queer is a slur. It cannot be reclaimed as a thing because it means something. And that thing is not a good thing.

I don’t mean for it to come across as shallow - what I’m saying is looks don’t play a part at all to me, whereas most people I know, regardless of sexuality, have a preference for a certain sort of look, be it slim, tall, brunette, whatever it is. I think sexuality is a spectrum and the labels aren’t that helpful anyway, I don’t think there are many people who are 100% straight or 100% gay, but it’s not for me to suggest how other people define themselves. On your second point, I don’t know how many types of bi people there are. What I do know from personal experience is that some bisexual people wouldn’t view me as part of that community because I will date trans people.

They’re not still men and women though, they’re just still male and female. Maybe attracted was the wrong word - they may be attracted to them, but would choose not to be in a relationship with them because of their difference in beliefs. Slurs can be reclaimed by the people they’re used against - lots of my gay friends use the F word, my black friends use the N word. It’s not for me to tell them they can’t. It’s a word that’s been used to oppress them, god forbid they use it themselves.

They’re not still men and women though, they’re just still male and female
What does this mean? Regardless of people's identity, unless they have a DSD, they're men and women.

Maybe attracted was the wrong word - they may be attracted to them, but would choose not to be in a relationship with them because of their difference in beliefs
Right, so you being a different sort of sexuality/not bi is nothing to do with sexuality though? I don't fancy Tories because of their beliefs. Do I need a different version of straight to describe myself compared to my Tory-fancying counterparts?

Regardless of people's identity, unless they have a DSD, they're men and women.

People with DSDs are still men and women.

If they have a DSD, what does that make them? If man and woman mean the same as male and female, why do we have two words to describe the same things? On your second point, I’m saying that bi people who choose not to date trans people or non binary or whatever else is political, but they would argue that bi relates to two genders, not two sexes. Lots of bisexual people I know won’t date trans people but can’t give me a reason why other than they don’t agree with it. They see bisexuality as being attracted to men and women. If it was solely about whether they were male and female, and obviously trans people are one of these, they’d date them. For me, I fancy men and I fancy women. Why wouldn’t I fancy someone who was transitioning, or identified as the opposite gender to their associated sex? This is all from my own experience, as I’ve said. So I don’t have all the answers. I don’t know what you want me to say. You’ve said you identify as straight even though you’ve fancied women - for me that doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t matter that you’ve never shagged a woman, if you fancy them, you’re not straight. But you identify as such. So who am I to tell you that you’re not straight? Similarly, if I think queer is the label for me, then it’s the label for me. Sexuality isn’t these nice little defined categories that everyone fits into.

Why? We do that all the time..

I've got an appointment with the specialist today. I hope they won't make me wait too long

I hope your friend enjoyed their cake

I've called the client and they said we've 2 weeks to complete this project

I’m still heeeere!

You can’t silence us you know - as much as you’d like to…

‘Most people don't care about pronouns OP!!!’

well, these people do, which is why I’m asking.

if they have a DSD, what does that make them? If man and woman mean the same as male and female, why do we have two words to describe the same things?

Adults with DSDs are either men or women. Men are adult human males. Males can be boys or men. They don't mean the same thing. Men are male humans.

Why this tortured syntax? Words mean things for a reason. What do you get out of an essay instead of a word?

If they have a DSD, what does that make them?
I would call the tiny number of people with DSD who are unclassifiable whatever they felt best suited them. But this is irrelevant to this conversation.

If man and woman mean the same as male and female, why do we have two words to describe the same things?
Because people didn't like to say the word 'sex' as they were puritanical and it made people think about shagging.

On your second point, I’m saying that bi people who choose not to date trans people or non binary or whatever else is political, but they would argue that bi relates to two genders, not two sexes. Lots of bisexual people I know won’t date trans people but can’t give me a reason why other than they don’t agree with it. They see bisexuality as being attracted to men and women. If it was solely about whether they were male and female, and obviously trans people are one of these, they’d date them.
No they wouldn't any more than they'd date a Tory. This is convoluted and completely confused. You've totally muddled up who someone CAN be attracted to in terms of their body and who they actually ARE attracted to in terms of their personality

For me, I fancy men and I fancy women. Why wouldn’t I fancy someone who was transitioning, or identified as the opposite gender to their associated sex?
That's up to you of course but they do not transition from one sex to another as they can't change so they are just socially transitioning for whatever that means. They are still either a man or woman - whichever they were born as so you might fancy them as you fancy both men and women.

You’ve said you identify as straight even though you’ve fancied women - for me that doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t matter that you’ve never shagged a woman, if you fancy them, you’re not straight. But you identify as such. So who am I to tell you that you’re not straight? Similarly, if I think queer is the label for me, then it’s the label for me. Sexuality isn’t these nice little defined categories that everyone fits into.
I don't care if people call me bi. I just have never experienced any of the stigma and trauma that people who behave in ways which tell others they are bi have do it seems a bit disrespectful to their experience to call myself that. It's not about defining categories, it's about the effect that it has. So when we make up new categories there are consequences. The Q+ I believe confuses people because it introduces the concept of identify into a system which is based on biology. This disenfranchises those who don't have faith in that particular religion. If LGBTQ+/ straight is about identity then I don't fit anywhere. I only fancy agender people and those agender people pretty much have to have an actual (not mocked up) penis. There is no category for me. I represent the vast majority of people so you have chosen to make a categorisation system which excludes most of the population whilst adding no clarity regarding who you actually might fancy and no clarity regarding whether you are likely to experience stigma and discrimination because of that.

I refer to people by their name. Can't go wrong with that.

@howmanybicycles and @AlisonDonut
Loving all of your posts. 👏

If man and woman mean the same as male and female, why do we have two words to describe the same things?

Firstly, thousands of English words have synonyms. Ever seen a thesaurus?

Secondly, man and male do not have the same meaning! You know vets see plenty of male patients, right? None of them are men though!

If man and woman mean the same as male and female, why do we have two words to describe the same things?

Because humans do not live alone on this planet. I am a human female - this makes me a "woman". I own a female rabbit. She is not a "woman" - she is a "doe". I am not a "doe".

We are both female though, as in we are both of the sex that produces large gametes.

Female refers to our sex in general, woman/doe refers to our sex within our own species. These words have been created for clarity and precision.

Language has evolved to be as precise as possible so that communication is as simple as possible - this is a necessity for civilisation to thrive. Attempts to obscure meaning and pretend simple concepts are difficult should be viewed with suspicion, as this is not being done in the best interests of the majority of the population.

Good point! And not all males are welcome at a boys under 12's football team!