To ask HOW he/they or she/they works?

[Henuinequest]

On a DE&I video call at work and the session panel did intros with pronouns stated - 2 of them said ‘I’m he/them’ and one said ‘she/they’. All panellist were trans identifying.

asking a practical question - if someone is he/ them, I’m fine just to to refer to him as he or him? As in ‘ let’s wait 2 mins to see if Josh is coming. He said he could make it’ or I’m I supposed to be saying them ??
the panel was all about trans day of remembrance or something like that so it didn’t feel appropriately to start asking them…

Language is a live organism, constantly changing to reflect the society, world and times which it currently is spoken in. Teaching needs to reflect that.
of course, we’ll next have JRM as education secretary as the tory musical chair runs out of options but that’s a different story

Language is a live organism, but it changes by implicit consent, organically. You cannot change it by compelling the speech of others.

Language evolved as a way to refer to and naviaget objective reality. Therefore you cannot force it to change to reflect a religion or ideology that not everyone shares.

As far as I'm concerned as a straight white female the only social group who really need to make room for me are men and that is again somewhat nuanced depending on the individual man (eg i wouldn't necessarily expect the same from a transmale as I would from another man.)

Please explain what a transmale is? A male is someone born with male biology. So a transmale is a transwoman yes? A transman is not and never can be male. So you want men to make room for you but not transwomen. Why not given that they retain male privilege?

I don't expect other women who are perhaps more marginalised than I am to make space for me- it's my responsibility to make more space for them so we can all benefit in the long run
Yes but this has nothing to do with the trans issue. I guess that the more marginalised than you women are people with disabilities, in poverty, refugees perhaps? Transwomen are not women so can never be 'other women'. If you continue to insist that they are then can you explain how you expect to protect the rights of the vast majority of females? Here you are centring just cis women (i.e. those small minority who identify as such) and transwoman. You are abandoning most females. Do you genuinely think it's OK to say to them that feminism has nothing to offer them because they don't identify as women? I would be appalled by such a stance.

I think it would be to assist in talking about them after the panel.

People say that we use "they" as a singular all the time which is true but we only do it in specific circumstances. They as a pronoun becomes a nightmare to use when you are talking about a group.

Person A- I thought the panel were really good.

Person B-I didn't think what X [they/them] said about Y was good.

Person A-Yes but they rest of what they said was great.

Is person A talking about X or the panel? Having the option of he/she gives clarity.

Wow, this opened a can of worms.

inwas actually hoping that some who uses those pronouns would come on to comment but I guess MNs probably not super popular with lGBTQ+ people in general

So I perhaps should have said transmen rather than transmale then by your definition. As in someone born as a woman who identifies as male. However I can also accept that certain groups of men or transwomen will have different sets of challenges that I will not face. I don't accept that transwomen retain all forms of male privilege, some yes, but not all and in other ways I feel they are more persecuted than I personally feel. Eg. No stranger has ever tried to burn my house down with me inside just because I'm female as happened in my area recently. "If you continue to insist that they are then can you explain how you expect to protect the rights of the vast majority of females? " I think it's possible to accept that they are without denying that they may have different needs from other females and that other females may have different needs from transwomen. I don't think the two have to be completely exclusive and safe spaces are needed for both which is why I think more flexibility and accessibility is needed across the board so that the needs of all are taken into account and provided for.

@Cw112

it's certainly what I see on the ground as a community worker on the daily. "They say that because they are told to say it to strong arm medics into referring them for treatment" who is telling people to say that? Where are you getting that info from? Because in all the time I've worked with trans people I've never seen them be told to lie to medical professionals- infact exactly the opposite. I have seen them actively attempt to end their lives though and be recommended to attend counselling which is the correct advice. Recognising that isn't manipulating anything or anyone its just recognising what I at least witness on the ground as do many of my colleagues in similar roles which is why we get extensive training in this area.

Who trained you and what training did you receive?

I'm really curious to know if my guess is right. Ie that "they" is preferred but he/she is acceptable if clarity is required. Doubt I'll ever get an answer here or anywhere else.

The topic is so loaded you can't ask anything anywhere.

No stranger has ever tried to burn my house down with me inside just because I'm female as happened in my area recently.
That kind of violence from men towards woman is not vanishly rare. The question is not about whether this has happened to you is it? it's whether it happens to women.

"If you continue to insist that they are then can you explain how you expect to protect the rights of the vast majority of females? " I think it's possible to accept that they are without denying that they may have different needs from other females and that other females may have different needs from transwomen
Stop calling me an 'other female'. Can you not see how disrespectful you're being? I have nothing bodily in common with a TW more than any other male and I have no common identity. Therefore if they are female as you are now insisting too, then I AM NOT.

don't think the two have to be completely exclusive and safe spaces are needed for both which is why I think more flexibility and accessibility is needed across the board so that the needs of all are taken into account and provided for.
It's vile to suggest that traumatised women need to be more flexible to accommodate the desires of men. Absolutely bloody loathsome. You are not taking actual women's into account here. You are throwing them under an ideological bus. Shame on you.

Also you now think 'woman' and 'female' are both ideological positions and nothing to do with biology. Historical research has collected biological not ideology data. It shows that the cunty type of person is oppressed and the penis wielding are the oppressors. Don't you care about the cunty type at all?

There are loads of LBG people on MN. Some look to it for a safe haven given the removal of their rights which the TRAs are campaigning for. Not so many TQ+ as they don't like to have to explain their entitlement.

If this is satire, it’s brilliant.

If this is genuine opinion, I’m going back to bed until all this has stopped.

@knittingaddict yes... which I addressed and acknowledged in the post you quoted. Doesn't mean that some people dont face additional barriers than others however? This is why feminism must be intersectional if its to benefit all women imo.

There's only one type of woman. The one who is biologically female.

I'm just thankful that no man was present when my daughters was living in a refuge.

Her (or his or theirs) confusion seems to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what woman mean and now even what female means.

If it's identity (it isn't, but if it were), it only describes a tine percentage of the population. If it's biology (it is) then a male's identity can never make him a woman.

The attempt at obfuscation is to try and create a context whereby men can be 'like us'. It's a desperate bid to find some in way in which say, Eddie Izzard, is more like me than my OH. Actually Eddie's less like me as I don't dress like him and my OH does not believe this his desire to be in a particular space trumps anyone's right for that to remain a protected space which does not include him (though that's nothing to do with him being a man, he's just not an arse). It is so threatening to those men to have women resist being pawns in their self-serving illusion and a shock to them to discover that women actually have independent minds.

Oh it's genuine alright.

There's a trans person called Lily Alexandre who makes youtube videos and tik toks explaining the ways of trans and this comes from them.

The problem with the whole trans thing is that there are new rules every day. Ever more outre and ridiculous.

It's almost as if people are just making things up for attention and because they like making other people's lives difficult.

I don't get why LGB are not separate from TQx. Surely they are completely different?

It's almost as if people are just making things up for attention and because they like making other people's lives difficult.

I came to this conclusion along time ago and it's an issue that has been exacerbated by social media. Each time I read some such nonsense I just imagine the person saying it standing on top of a soap box shouting 'ME, LOOK AT ME' because that is what it is all about.

I think you'll find there are many LBG who would dearly like to separate from the TQ and are making their feelings quite clear, increasingly so from what I can see.

LBG are sexual identities, defined by sex and sexual attraction, the traditional type, grounded in fact and biology. TQ not so much and seems to mean what ever you feel like it meaning😂

Yes they are. And when they set up charities any funding they get is hounded until it is withdrawn and they get taken through the courts for the right to even exist which again puts a hold on charity work.

Can I ask why Q isn’t also a sexuality? Why are Q+ people seen as the same as trans? For full disclosure, I identify as queer.

Either you are straight, gay, lesbian or bisexual.

What does queer mean?

It means I’m something close to bisexual, but some bisexual people won’t date trans people. I will, so I choose to label myself as queer or pan. Usually I just call myself gay because I find other terms a bit cringeworthy, especially to people I don’t know well enough to explain that I’m not attracted to genitalia and a persons gender means nothing to me.

He, she, and it are singular pronouns. They is a plural pronoun. Hearing they is makes me quite irate. Popular usage may change, but change is not always good.

I would imagine it was depleted because you refered to it as ‘trans crap’. So don’t be disingenuous, own your opinions.

Just musings, but if sounds like both sexes are included in people you are attracted to. But that doesn't mean you will date any person, you still have preferences, like everyone else. And because you include those who identify as different genders, you use there term queer? Do people who are bisexual but with different preferences to you have labels?

What you do is ignore the entire mess because thankfully compelled speech is not a thing.