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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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England Taking The Knee

344 replies

JimmyKrankie · 21/11/2022 14:05

Thoughts on the team taking the knee??

I'm in no way racist, I don't care what colour someone's skin is, I have and always will judge people as people, but this really gets to me and I don't agree with the whole knee thing.

What do you think?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Lunar270 · 22/11/2022 09:30

🤦

PAFMO · 22/11/2022 09:33

MassiveSaladWithChristmasTrimmings · 22/11/2022 09:24

Why does it make you sick if I say my white children's lives matter equally to a black life?

Don't come out with shite like White Privilege because that is a lazy, sloppy and -many time-s plain untrue slogan to shut people down who ask why black lives matter more than white.

My white life, my child's white life, my mother's white life, my husband's white life, my friends' white lives are equally important and no shitty slogan will make me think otherwise and it is distressing to see that saying white and black lives matter equally make you sick.

What is your agenda?

TL:DR

"I'm not racist but" would have been more succinct.

inigomontoyahwillcox · 22/11/2022 09:38

Christ on a bike - after reading this thread I fucking despair.

Disliking a harmless symbolic gesture against racism? Writing the words White Lives Matter?

You need to stop posting on Mumsnet and take the time to reassess your attitude towards people who are not white, and consider why you're spouting such racist drivel on the internet.

phishy · 22/11/2022 09:44

Lndnmummy · 21/11/2022 17:14

I have read these messages over and over. It sure as hell is not @phishy diluting anything.

"The problem with people like you...."

What people? Brown ones?!

Thanks @Lndnmummy

So sorry to see your posts being deleted, you haven’t said anything that breaks the guidelines.

I’m glad to see that @Toffoo has been deleted completely.

Sad to see that those who agreed with OP did not take the time to renounce @Toffoo as a racist. Silently complicit.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 22/11/2022 10:14

I'd rather virtue signal than not virtue signal. Same as the term 'do gooder'. I'd rather be a do gooder than a do badder

Actually countless people are doing and and "virtuous" things all the time - though they'd probably hesitate to label them as such - but many just get on with it quietly and don't find it necessary to advertise the fact to everyone else

Admittedly it means no "look at meeeee doing such-and-such" image to plaster all over social media, but IME they don't need it as such things do get noticed by those whose concentration span lasts longer than the time it takes to click

DeeCeeCherry · 22/11/2022 10:49

I'd rather virtue signal than not virtue signal. Same as the term 'do gooder'. I'd rather be a do gooder than a do badder

Agree. Its only badminded people who've come up with derisory terminology for others having the integrity to show solidarity in the face of abhorrent actions anyway. Unedifying.

luckylavender · 22/11/2022 10:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

KettrickenSmiled · 22/11/2022 11:06

Why would I say I'm racist if I'm not?
😂😂😂

Aaaaw, the faux-naivete is a teensy bit hard to believe OP.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-42685806

funinthesun19 · 22/11/2022 11:10

I doesn't bother me - but I do think it's lost it's meaning now. It's just become an expected thing that happens at the start of each match rather than a protest.

This.

KettrickenSmiled · 22/11/2022 11:12

but this really gets to me and I don't agree with the whole knee thing.

Try to look on it as akin to the toxically divisive abortion debate OP.

Don't like abortion? - don't have one! Also - STFU about anyone else's uterus.
Don't wish to take the knee? - don't take it! Also - STFU about anyone else's knee.

England Taking The Knee
monsteramunch · 22/11/2022 11:47

@MassiveSaladWithChristmasTrimmings

Don't come out with shite like White Privilege because that is a lazy, sloppy and -many time-s plain untrue slogan to shut people down who ask why black lives matter more than white.

Firstly, saying 'Black Lives Matter' isn't the same as saying 'Black Lives Matter More Than White Lives'. You either genuinely haven't understood that or are being disingenuous.

Secondly, white privilege simply means that of all the things someone has to worry about, personally experiencing racism against people of colour isn't one of them. It doesn't mean all white people are privileged in the sense of being rich or even comfortably off.

Male privilege doesn't mean that all men have carefree lives or lives better than all women. It simply means that of all the things a man has to worry about, personally experiencing sexism against women isn't one of them.

Do you think male privilege doesn't exist either?

Juniperising · 22/11/2022 11:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Alittlenonsensenowandthen · 22/11/2022 11:53

I don't feel comfortable with it as a Christian as the bible says
It is written: “’As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God

So for me it holds special connotations with recognising jesus as my saviour.

I do however think that taking some sort of stance in unity is important and a good visual reminder. It's just that personally I don't feel comfortable doing the aforementioned.

MassiveSaladWithChristmasTrimmings · 22/11/2022 12:08

@monsteramunch

All lives matter and no amount of this flabby, nebulous 'white privilege' argument will ever make me think the lives of one race matter more than another. Every human life is equal.

'White privilege" a brilliant piece of marketing constructed purely to shut down any questioning of the fact that black lives do not matter any more or any less than white lives.

JennyNotFromTheBlock · 22/11/2022 12:11

MassiveSaladWithChristmasTrimmings · 22/11/2022 12:08

@monsteramunch

All lives matter and no amount of this flabby, nebulous 'white privilege' argument will ever make me think the lives of one race matter more than another. Every human life is equal.

'White privilege" a brilliant piece of marketing constructed purely to shut down any questioning of the fact that black lives do not matter any more or any less than white lives.

@MassiveSaladWithChristmasTrimmings For the 'All lives matter' folks:
When the Boston marathon was bombed, everybody's profile picture went "Boston strong" - nobody said "all cities are strong"!

When Las Vegas shooting happened, people changed their profiles "stand with Vegas" - nobody popped up and said "well what about the people that got shot in my city"!

Have you ever seen someone counter a "breast cancer" post with "what about colon cancer"?

But for some reason if someone says "black lives matter" it turns into all inclusive "all lives matter".
It's not an either/or proclamation.
When there is a crisis we have always rallied around that particular group.
It doesn't discredit or diminish any other group it just brings awareness and support to the group that needs attention.

Imagine your child dying and you are giving a eulogy explaining what your own child meant to you and how special your child was, then someone grabs the mic and says "actually all children are special...."
Yes.
That's what "all lives matter" sounds like.
Embarrassing.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 22/11/2022 12:14

For me, an issue here is that of the stark either/or opposition. EITHER you openly support #BLM, and make easily recognizable gestures which show everyone else that support it, OR you're racist. I want to broaden that discussion beyond football: football is one context in which there's a well-documented and longstanding problem with racism. It needs to tackling at every level, although I do think there's mileage in the suggestion that if it becomes an established ritual at the start of every game, it will lose impetus.

But the Either/Or divide isn't that simple. As a PP pointed out, you can believe black lives matter and still be deeply uncomfortable with #BLM as a movement, its funding, its occasional misappropriation, and (for me at least) its place in a broader, censorious culture in which not taking the knee, or not wearing a poppy, or not announcing your pronouns in accordance with whichever ideology demands it, can and has resulted in people being threatened, intimidated, and even in the loss of their livelihoods.

I'm uncomfortable with #BlackLivesMatter as a movement for these reasons. I'm uncomfortable that even a discussion of these reasons is shot down with cries of 'racism'. I'm similarly uncomfortable with the 'all lives matter' mantra. I'm white. I've never in my life experienced discrimination, abuse, ridicule or been attacked because of my skin colour. I've never tried to trace back my ancestry and found it stops at a particular point, because this was the time of the slave trade. To acknowledge that deeply painful history is not to be a self-flagellating apologist, as some on this thread have suggested. White privilege exists, just as surely as male privilege does. If you have it, you can't necessarily see it, but this is why so-called 'colour blindness' is a particular problem.

For me, a key problem is a lack of critical engagement with these issues. In some situations, the cost of discussing them is too great: it only takes one comment to be misconstrued and real consequences can ensue. So people stay quiet and fester, but their real views sometimes come out in threads such as this. We've learned in recent years that the kind of misogyny viewed as antediluvian back in the noughties was never simmering too far below the surface, but in recent years has come back with a vengeance. The same thing seems to be happening with racism.

I think it's vital these discussions continue, albeit they are so difficult and uncomfortable.

DeeCeeCherry · 22/11/2022 12:15

Why would I say I'm racist if I'm not
😂
Because its just easier to say good morning to your Black neighbours and colleagues and then scurry to keyboard to get your real feelings outta your chest

monsteramunch · 22/11/2022 12:16

MassiveSaladWithChristmasTrimmings · 22/11/2022 12:08

@monsteramunch

All lives matter and no amount of this flabby, nebulous 'white privilege' argument will ever make me think the lives of one race matter more than another. Every human life is equal.

'White privilege" a brilliant piece of marketing constructed purely to shut down any questioning of the fact that black lives do not matter any more or any less than white lives.

Did you not read my post or just not understand it.

Saying Black Lives Matter isn't the same as saying Black Lives Matter more than white lives.

So why do you keep arguing on the basis that people are saying the latter?

And again, do you believe male privilege is a thing or is that just spin in your opinion too?

JennyNotFromTheBlock · 22/11/2022 12:18

NM

England Taking The Knee
England Taking The Knee
England Taking The Knee
FloydPepper · 22/11/2022 12:20

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 22/11/2022 12:14

For me, an issue here is that of the stark either/or opposition. EITHER you openly support #BLM, and make easily recognizable gestures which show everyone else that support it, OR you're racist. I want to broaden that discussion beyond football: football is one context in which there's a well-documented and longstanding problem with racism. It needs to tackling at every level, although I do think there's mileage in the suggestion that if it becomes an established ritual at the start of every game, it will lose impetus.

But the Either/Or divide isn't that simple. As a PP pointed out, you can believe black lives matter and still be deeply uncomfortable with #BLM as a movement, its funding, its occasional misappropriation, and (for me at least) its place in a broader, censorious culture in which not taking the knee, or not wearing a poppy, or not announcing your pronouns in accordance with whichever ideology demands it, can and has resulted in people being threatened, intimidated, and even in the loss of their livelihoods.

I'm uncomfortable with #BlackLivesMatter as a movement for these reasons. I'm uncomfortable that even a discussion of these reasons is shot down with cries of 'racism'. I'm similarly uncomfortable with the 'all lives matter' mantra. I'm white. I've never in my life experienced discrimination, abuse, ridicule or been attacked because of my skin colour. I've never tried to trace back my ancestry and found it stops at a particular point, because this was the time of the slave trade. To acknowledge that deeply painful history is not to be a self-flagellating apologist, as some on this thread have suggested. White privilege exists, just as surely as male privilege does. If you have it, you can't necessarily see it, but this is why so-called 'colour blindness' is a particular problem.

For me, a key problem is a lack of critical engagement with these issues. In some situations, the cost of discussing them is too great: it only takes one comment to be misconstrued and real consequences can ensue. So people stay quiet and fester, but their real views sometimes come out in threads such as this. We've learned in recent years that the kind of misogyny viewed as antediluvian back in the noughties was never simmering too far below the surface, but in recent years has come back with a vengeance. The same thing seems to be happening with racism.

I think it's vital these discussions continue, albeit they are so difficult and uncomfortable.

But sensible and valid discussion of those issues isn’t called out as racism (not by most posters). That’s a discussion that can be had

racism is called out as racism

not one of the (almost openly but not quite) posters on this thread wants to discuss that. I’m not sure they could if they wanted to.

Juniperising · 22/11/2022 12:21

DeeCeeCherry · 22/11/2022 12:15

Why would I say I'm racist if I'm not
😂
Because its just easier to say good morning to your Black neighbours and colleagues and then scurry to keyboard to get your real feelings outta your chest

Maybe you should read a little story called the boy who cried wolf, and think about that for a moment.

Because that's the point we're at now, to many people cry wolf when they find someone they disagree with as a cheap shot and the meaning now looses all value and people stop giving a shit or taking notice.

Maybe just maybe people like you are the issue.

DeeCeeCherry · 22/11/2022 12:25

As per, organisations supporting injustice against Black people are subjected to the highest scrutiny by non-Black people who present as if theyre an authority, propping up the racist bullshit they read on media.

Go and scrutinise your 'charitable' White organisations whereby your men travel abroad to be sexual menaces to the communities they pretend they're helping; whilst their wives sit here pretending not to know.

toffeecrisps · 22/11/2022 12:27

MassiveSaladWithChristmasTrimmings · 22/11/2022 12:08

@monsteramunch

All lives matter and no amount of this flabby, nebulous 'white privilege' argument will ever make me think the lives of one race matter more than another. Every human life is equal.

'White privilege" a brilliant piece of marketing constructed purely to shut down any questioning of the fact that black lives do not matter any more or any less than white lives.

Please point out where anyone on this thread has said that the lives of one race matter more than another.

KettrickenSmiled · 22/11/2022 12:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Logic isn't your strong suit is it @Juniperising ?

Who am I looking to sensor censor?
Whose thought & individual opinions am I censoring?

Do you understand the difference between censorship & advice?
Or were your critical faculties so overcome by an acronym for a swear word that you were unable to perceive that I haven't shut anyone down, told anyone what to think, but have in fact merely offered OP some suggestions?

FloydPepper · 22/11/2022 12:37

JennyNotFromTheBlock · 22/11/2022 12:11

@MassiveSaladWithChristmasTrimmings For the 'All lives matter' folks:
When the Boston marathon was bombed, everybody's profile picture went "Boston strong" - nobody said "all cities are strong"!

When Las Vegas shooting happened, people changed their profiles "stand with Vegas" - nobody popped up and said "well what about the people that got shot in my city"!

Have you ever seen someone counter a "breast cancer" post with "what about colon cancer"?

But for some reason if someone says "black lives matter" it turns into all inclusive "all lives matter".
It's not an either/or proclamation.
When there is a crisis we have always rallied around that particular group.
It doesn't discredit or diminish any other group it just brings awareness and support to the group that needs attention.

Imagine your child dying and you are giving a eulogy explaining what your own child meant to you and how special your child was, then someone grabs the mic and says "actually all children are special...."
Yes.
That's what "all lives matter" sounds like.
Embarrassing.

👏

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